Likability As Legal Strategy

You can feel it the moment a divorce turns from sad to scorched earth and most people assume the only way through is to “lawyer up” and fight harder. We see something different: the calmest person in the room often has the most power. Divorce attorney Anna Romanskaya joins us to explain how empathy, credibility, and being genuinely likable can move family law cases forward, even in high conflict litigation where everyone feels triggered and exhausted.

We talk about what Anna’s background as a Ukrainian refugee and her early years doing crisis hotline and suicide prevention taught her about staying present during emotional emergencies. That experience shows up in her practice today: advocating fiercely while remembering “it’s their story, not my story,” setting boundaries with client communication, and refusing to let panic drive decisions. If you’ve ever felt frustrated waiting for a callback, we unpack why instant access isn’t always the help you think it is, and what a healthier support system looks like during the divorce process.

From child custody to co-parenting, we zoom out to the big picture: why kids should never be used as messengers, how resentment at home can shape what children learn about relationships, and when therapy or mediation can help people separate without turning it into a war. Anna also shares her “road trip” framework where the client is the driver and the lawyer is the navigator, plus a practical way to define priorities like financial stability, parenting schedules, and protecting your peace.

Subscribe, share this with someone who needs it, and leave a review if the conversation helps you rethink divorce, family law, or co-parenting. What question do you want us to tackle next?

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Transcript

mpathy In Family Law

SPEAKER_02 0:00

When most people think about divorce lawyers, they imagine someone aggressive like me. Maybe even a little cynical about love. But today's guest completely flips that stereotype.

SPEAKER_00 0:11

It's their story, it's my story. I can tell the story and I can be empathetic and advocate.

SPEAKER_01 0:16

And honestly, family law can be one of the most emotionally intense areas of the legal profession.

SPEAKER_02 0:22

Now that I have children, I definitely see it from a different perspective.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

Today we're talking about whether empathy and being genuinely likable might actually be one of the most powerful tools a lawyer can have.

SPEAKER_00 0:35

The client is a driver. I'm your navigator. Passive aggressiveness, problems arise and you deal with it. It's heavy because they're unhappy.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

If a couple is unhappy, should they stay together if they have kids?

SPEAKER_00 0:47

I tell my clients going through this process, even if it's the most benign, like simple divorce, everybody gets along, to make sure you have a good support system.

SPEAKER_02 1:04

Welcome back to the Glamorous Grind, where we break down the law and how it actually shows up in real life.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Our guest today is Anna Romanskaya, a divorce attorney who's built a reputation while maintaining something that's surprisingly rare in high conflict litigation: genuine likability.

SPEAKER_02 1:24

Everyone loves Anna, including myself. I don't know one person in this community who doesn't like Anna. She doesn't say anything bad about anybody. She doesn't pass judgment, at least in all the years I've known her. She's just very pleasant, very kind, and no wonder she also gets cases done in the same way.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

Today we're gonna talk about what it's really like practicing family law and what lawyers like Anna have learned about relationships that the rest of us don't see.

ow She Balances Leadership And Motherhood

SPEAKER_02 1:53

Okay, Anna, so how do you do this? And I mean everything. You're a mom of two kids, you're a super lawyer, recognized for many years in a row, and you're so active in the legal community. You're just lead leader in so many legal organizations. Can you name a couple? How do I do it all?

SPEAKER_00 2:09

Um, sometimes not very well. And uh some days are definitely better than others. Uh so in terms of my I guess activities outside of the family, my my adulted, as I call it. So with the ABA, the American Bar Association, I am on the board of governors. I'm in my second year on the board of governors, which is the um basically the board for the association, and I represent the state of California.

SPEAKER_02 2:36

But you've been with ABA since you were a baby lawyer, right?

SPEAKER_00 2:39

I did. I drank the Kool-Aid early. I started in law school, and it was sort of like a fluke. I had no idea that the ABA is an association you can be involved in. I thought it was just that organization that accredits law schools. I had no idea that it was like an actual association to gather and built community. And I had an opportunity to get involved as a law student because I had a friend who was going to a conference and I wanted to hang out with my friend.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

And you've stayed involved in that organization throughout your legal career?

SPEAKER_00 3:08

I did. So I stayed involved. They have a young lawyers division, um, had a handful of leadership positions throughout the years there, and then ultimately decided that I'm gonna get a second full-time non-paying job and ran for the uh what eventually would be the chair of the young lawyers division.

SPEAKER_02 3:28

Yeah, I mean, every time I would see you on social media, you're flying here, there. Yeah, and Matt, who's now your husband and back then was not, was extremely supportive and going everywhere with you. And sometimes he would go to events when Anna would be at ABA events, and Matt would come and pass out her business cards. He would appear in lieu of Anna to ensure that you represents her was really cute.

SPEAKER_00 3:49

It was, yeah, my problem, my non-lawyer husband.

SPEAKER_01 3:52

That was my next question. Your husband's not a lawyer.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

He's not a lawyer, but he speaks lawyer. Yeah, we've been together, we met my first year of practice in 2008.

SPEAKER_01 4:03

Now you have two kids together.

SPEAKER_00 4:04

I know.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

How old are your kids?

SPEAKER_00 4:07

My so my daughter Valerie, Miss Valerie, is four, and baby brother Reese is 17 months yesterday. Oh my gosh. And they're crazy.

rom Refugee Childhood To Purpose

SPEAKER_02 4:18

What made you want to become a lawyer? I mean, you're an immigrant like me, right? Can you tell us a little bit, well, for our audience, a little bit about yourself? How old were you when you came to America? How did you learn English? What made you want to become a lawyer? And how did you make it happen?

SPEAKER_00 4:33

So I was born in Kiev, Ukraine, and we were refugees here, my family. We were all refugees from the Soviet Union and came in 1989.

SPEAKER_02 4:45

That's because you guys were Jewish, right?

SPEAKER_00 4:46

Yep. So we're we were able to leave the Soviet Union at the time through a treaty with Israel. And we were able to end up in the U.S. We moved to California because my aunt had immigrated in the 70s and was one of our sponsors, and ultimately through the asylum program through Jewish family services, we were able to get sponsorship and come to the States. And I was six, just shy of my seventh birthday when we arrived, and my sister was one. So I don't know how my parents did it. That's how it happened. That's what brought us here. So grew up in LA. I never thought about being a lawyer. Not anything that I aspired to. Lawyers were like, you know, white men on TV. That's yeah, that's not something I ever thought about. But when I was 11, my dad passed away really suddenly. He had a work accident. He was a sheet metal worker and he fell on the job. And that was a big life-altering event. We were in America for about five years at that point. My parents had just bought a house. Kind of a survival mode for a little bit for my mom. I didn't really kind of get it. But we ended up having to move out of the house that I really liked, where I had my own room and it was the most important thing in the world to me, you know, at 11, 12 years old. But when we moved, and I had to move to a new school and out of our really nice house to a small little apartment to be near my mom's job while she kind of figured it all out. I had to grow up really quick. And I ended up really just kind of being my mom's kind of daughter, confident, friend, support person, and everything in between. And in a lot of ways, had to step up and help raise my sister who was five at the time. And uh so that became our dynamic. So we shifted from, you know, where I was kind of a little bratty, know-it-all kid, to having to become an extra caretaker. And that shifted my mindset of, you know, I I ended up gravitating toward um doing kind of crisis hotline work and peer remediation, even in middle school. And um, when I was in high school growing up in LA, I volunteered at a wonderful nonprofit organization called Teen Line, which is still in existence today, where teens talk to other teens about everything from relationships to suicide prevention and um domestic violence and child abuse. And so I went through a big intensive training in my junior year, because I remember I really wanted to do it starting out as a freshman, but my mom couldn't get me to the training, so I had to wait until I can drive myself. And I got my driver license on my 16th birthday so that I can go and take myself to the training for a teen line and get involved in that crisis hotline. And so that was my big, you know, how like some kids do sports, and I didn't do any of that. I did all things teen line, and it helped me in a lot of ways kind of heal and and come to terms with where our life is. And I really loved it. I really got involved, particularly in suicide prevention. I did presentations in high schools to other teens to talk about kind of everything literally from healthy relationships to what costs somebody to feel that low to want to consider taking their own life. And so then ultimately going to college, you know, when you're like, okay, what do I want to do when I grow up? And I thought, okay, I'm gonna be a psych major, you know, because I want to, I like this stuff. I want to continue doing it. And kind of long story short, I ended up going to UC Santa Barbara for undergrad. And I was a psych major for two whole weeks because I realized it's actually a science, it's a heart science. And ultimately I ended up studying law and society, which is like the sociology of law and political science, because I thought those were interesting. And throughout college, I volunteered at another similar organization in Santa Barbara called Family Service Agency, where I basically started the crisis hotline and um did trainings on suicide prevention. So I took kind of my background from high school days and brought it over to this nonprofit to help kind of create a training on suicide prevention. And I did outreach into the local high schools in Santa Barbara. And that's kind of what I thought my path would be, like kind of social work therapist. And then I had an aha moment. I remember in my junior year of college, my third year, of like, okay, what do I do when I graduate? And I ultimately realized that what I really want to do is help people get out of their situation. So I don't I didn't want to spend my time really kind of drawing in on maybe the roots of why they were where they were, but I wanted to do more actively, like, let's let's be proactive and help them get out of their circumstance. And I figured law school would be kind of the path to do that, because you can be, you can do anything with a law degree, right? You can be, you know, anything when you're a lawyer. And that's what drove me to law school. So it wasn't some burning passion of I want to be a lawyer. It was more of like I want to help people get out of really crappy situations. Be able to do all the work that is passionate to me, which is really a lot of the community work where I get to kind of educate and and be able to kind of be a voice.

ompassion Without Taking It Home

SPEAKER_02 10:26

Remember that movie, There's something about Mary? I've been watching it forever. No? Oh my god. Okay. Well, it's there's something about Anna now and something about Anna is how does she do it? Like I said initially, like everybody likes Anna. Hearing her story, it makes sense. She was able to talk people out of taking their own lives, and as I'm doing that now for like what 30 years of experience we have since high school. So if you can handle stations like that, you can handle people going through emotional crises and divorce proceedings and remain likable all because you know how to talk to them and get them through that, whether you're on one side or the other.

SPEAKER_00 11:08

Well, you know, the benefit of having kind of all the training is that I know what to not take home. And I think that's the biggest piece that maybe some younger lawyers don't know. Especially older lawyers, right? Don't know how to not take things personal, how to not make it personal, how to know that there is a line that it's, you know, it's it's their story, it's not my story. I can tell the story and I can be empathetic and be, you know, have have that ability to to advocate, but not to take it home. And not to say that, you know, there I'm I'm human, right? That I've certainly had situations that have affected me more than others where I take it home and think through it and you know, think, did I do the right thing? Especially if, you know, it's a hard case and ultimately the result is not what would have what I would have liked, you know, or maybe, you know, it was a hard fought, like restraining order that we ended up losing. That should have really that we should have prevailed on. And that's hard. You know, and then you have a client looking at you going, like, what just happened? And I'm like, I don't know what just happened. Those are the kind of things that that sometimes I take home.

SPEAKER_01 12:24

So well, what's fascinating to me is how at such a young age you recognized your purpose so clearly. And what's even more fascinating to me is most people run from that kind of trauma. Like I always say trauma dumping, you know, is a thing. And I I deal with it a lot on the employment side because my clients also, I mean, it's not family law, but it's people who have just lost their livelihood and don't know how they're gonna pay their rent. And taking in all of that, uh if I didn't get paid for it, I would run. I would not want to listen because it it's heavy. Yeah. And you like even in as a teenager ran towards that and wanted to help people. That's fascinating to me.

SPEAKER_02 13:07

Because when you hear other people's pain, it helps you deal with your own, it helps you heal in a way. I know you want to help more because you feel bad for people and you were like, you know what? I went through this. This is part of my I had to go through this so I can help others.

ustody Fights And The Big Picture

SPEAKER_00 13:22

I think initially that was my sort of, I didn't like consciously know that, you know, but kind of in in retrospect and like self-analyzing, right? And to to think, I think that's why I gravitated toward that initially. And I went so deep into it because it was for me an outlet of a way to kind of deal with what I had going on in my life. But you know, it's certainly as I've gotten older and kind of done this work for for a while now, and I'm 18 years into the practice officially, right? It's it's hard, you know, just being honest. Like it's hard sometimes not to feel a little jaded and deflated and exhausted. You know, my my bullshit tolerance is certainly, you know, a little not not as um high as it used to be, you know. Um it's it's it is exhausting. And, you know, now having kids too, and we we have quite a journey to get to having kids and to be able to, you know, sometimes see how kind of frivolously uh they're they're treated sometimes, not intentionally by maybe well, well-meaning people, but uh when you're fighting about kids and using them as you know, as kind of a means to to get what you want, that makes it hard. Yeah, you know, and that's kind of when I when I know I need to take a minute and take a breath. And I feel like I've gotten a little bit better about that also, knowing that I can't kind of save everybody and help everybody, that sometimes it might not be a personality match. And I've gotten better at, you know, if talking to certain potential clients where I'm like, okay, I know that we're not this isn't gonna mesh well because maybe you want me to be a certain way or advocate for you a certain way that isn't going to, you know, drive with the way that I want to practice. And then I refer them out and it's great because I have a lot of, you know, there's good options out there.

SPEAKER_02 15:17

Remember when I was a new lawyer and one of the judges told me after hearing my comment uh about why my client went to school during his non-custodial time that you don't have children, do you? And I was like, why does it matter, like whether you have kids or not, if you're a family law attorney? But now that I have children, I definitely see it from a different perspective. Certainly, kids have to be protected from parents who are gonna abuse them or neglect them. But I feel the more love they have, even if parents have different parenting skills, like parallel parenting is fine. Nobody parents the same way. Even in our own, my own house. You know, I do it totally different with my boyfriend. Couples are often fight over parenting of their kids. But when it comes to litigation in family court, is it worth paying lawyers to fight over those things that you made bicker over at home?

SPEAKER_00 16:10

When you're looking at the bigger picture, sometimes, you know, sometimes, you know, when you have I'm sure you have clients like this also who are like, my kids are everything and I've done everything for them, and I'm the parent that has done XYZ and the other parent hasn't done anything. And if they go with the other parent, the world is gonna end, right? It's like everything is gonna be horrible. And so it's really trying to have conversations, say, okay, well, let's kind of look at big picture and what are the biggest concerns, and let's see if we can address those concerns. And is the fact that maybe the other parents' bedtime is at nine instead of eight, the way it is in your household, is that gonna make or break them? Maybe, maybe not. You know, let's talk through that and see if we can maybe come back to center. I think the saddest to me is when I see kids are so isolated against a parent because they're aligning with the other parents' emotions, and you know, the parents are sharing their feelings of hurt and anger, and the kids are adopting that. And so, you know, that uh ruins the relationship, and they end up growing up in getting into similar types of relationships, and it's it's almost the cycle that just perpetuates.

SPEAKER_02 17:21

If a couple split up and it's an affair, and a child who, depending on their age, becomes aligned with a parent, I think it's natural, it's normal, especially if it's girls, to feel like that way and to feel for and defend, you know, the wronged party. It's just a process, it takes time to get through that, but there is nothing wrong with that. They all have to work through their emotions. It's like any one of us teenagers would feel like that too, or even if we're younger.

lient As Driver Lawyer As Navigator

SPEAKER_00 17:51

Right? Well, right, but that's when you know, us as a lawyer, you know, where I sort of like, okay, I'm not, I'm not a therapist, right? Like, I that's not a process that I can help you through, but I can identify and say, this is something that you maybe you would benefit from having some support, from having some therapeutic assistance to be able to process the feelings so that is there something that you know that can you get past this to where you can have a relationship with the other parent, you know, and maybe see above that and and try to, you know, do see if there's a path forward. But ultimately, as a lawyer, I mean that my my role is right, is to support my client and try to advocate for them. But this is sort of like where, like, are we gonna get along, you know, as as a partnership or and are we not, because I don't want to have to fight against my client. And if our kind of values, maybe and way of doing things isn't aligned, then I can recognize it. And I feel like I'm a lot better at it now than maybe when I started out, to say, like, okay, I'm not gonna be fighting against you. If our if our strategy isn't aligned, that's okay. I'm okay, that's okay. We can, you know, I can find somebody maybe who can better support you in in advocating for the position that you feel so strongly about. I always say this is this is a good analogy of how I present to my clients of our relationship. Feel free to use this. That our relationship is like a road trip where the client is a driver of the car because ultimately you client are going to determine where you end up. And then you have to live with the final destination, right? Your outcome, your the how this all plays out. You have to live it, right? I'm your navigator as your counsel. I help you get there, I give you direction, I give you instruction. And you can choose to listen to me or not, right? As your navigator, like you can choose to listen to your navigation in your car, or you can be like, no, I know a better road, or no, I know a way around that, right? But then you're no longer aligned, right? So do you still need your navigation if you think you know a different path or you want to go a different path? Maybe, maybe not, right? Or maybe you need a different navigation, right? That's gonna realign you. So that's how I always say, like, that's that's a relationship. We work together because we're on this journey together. But if ultimately we diverge in our in the way we're doing things, then it's no longer, you know, a good, a good partnership, and that's okay. We can part ways.

SPEAKER_02 20:16

I think we need to update your analogy to the current AI scheme of it being Chad GPT, because using the same analogy, if you give it more facts, if the client gives you more facts, then you might change your mind. And just like Chad GPT says, Oh, you're right. Oh, yeah. You know, you're you're correct. But there is a road closure I didn't take. I haven't thought of that.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

Can you tell me more about that or that toll road that I didn't think you didn't want to take?

SPEAKER_02 20:40

We as lawyers have to accept that it's a process. If something happens to them recently, it may take them six to twelve months to adjust and then shed the feelings if they're getting help through other professionals if they can't afford it or choose to use their matures to go to one if they can get one on their own. But everything is a process, and we either stay with them on this path and guide them through it because we see that they can get there, that we can help them consider it from different perspectives and have an open mind to do what's best for their kids. And they're those people that no matter how you try how hard you try, it's just not gonna happen. We've both been there. Um, but you know, if they're years into it and something hasn't changed, it may also may also not be our client, right? It could be the other side who consistently triggers them and their drama never stops. So it's high conflict, yeah, litigation, high conflict, both parents. Yep. And it's kind of hopeless that it's gonna change until their kids turn 18 and they're out of court. How do you handle that? Because we yeah, you often get it.

andling High Conflict And Hardball Tactics

oundaries With Clients In Crisis

SPEAKER_00 21:43

I mean, sometimes I get like a case that's totally benign and then poof, it's no longer benign. Sometimes we get a counsel on the other side that makes it no longer benign, you know? And sometimes we have, you know, things that happen. And I think again, you know, you craft a strategy to try to help. Your client in to get them to where they want to be. I usually ask in my initial conversations, where do you want to be at the end of the day? So when all of this is done, where do you want to be? Like we started the end of the road trip, right? What's your destiny? Like what is what are the most important things to you? What are your main interests? And this is kind of my negotiation background. Like, what is what are your main interests? Your main concern is you want to have financial stability. Okay, so let's not talk about numbers, but like what's where what do you want? Like, oh, I want to make sure and stay in the house, or oh, I really want to make sure that I have a retirement. Or, you know, my kids are the most important thing to me in the whole wide world. I want to make sure that they're safe and protected and well cared for. Okay, so let's go with that. And then I work backwards and say, okay, here are the main pieces of where you want to be and what you want to do. How do we get you there? How do you, what is what is important to you? What's like, I absolutely will never negotiate on this. And then we can dive into it. If it's like I want full custody, the end, period. I don't even want to think of anything else. All right, well, let's break that down. What does that mean for you when you say full custody? You want the other parent to never ever see the child ever, ever under any circumstance? Nine and a half out of 10 times, well, no, I don't want it, I don't want that, you know, but I want to control it. All right, so we break through that. And sometimes, you know, things change and as the case is new facts come in. But generally that's how I approach it. So if a case is super high conflict, there usually is there's reasons behind that and try to navigate around like what are the main interests? And like nine out of 10 times, I'm able to get them to where they want to be. Maybe not the in the exact way that they thought, right? Maybe their full custody means that they, you know, the other parent is gonna have a some weekends, you know, whatever that may look like. But, you know, sometimes you have really aggressive counsel on the other side where their strategy is, no, we're not gonna agree to anything, we're not gonna respond to anything, we're just gonna move through cord and grind it to, you know, you either give in or run out of money. And that's those cases are hard for me, right? Because most of the time I have the client that's kind of like, I just want to get through this. I just want to get through it. I want to get to the other side. And if I have super aggressive counsel on the other side that is making life incredibly difficult for this person that just wants to get through it, that's where kind of going back to like the relationships piece, nine out of 10 times I know the counsel on the other side. And that's when we can have kind of real talk where I can pick up the phone. And this is why it's been so important to me to cultivate a relation, to be present in the community so that I can know the judges, you know, even the new judges, like half the judges on the bench right now, I can't appear in front of because I've served on served on various boards with, and some of them are my close friends. So it becomes like that where I'm at now, where I can kind of let my reputation help my clients be able to sometimes diffuse a situation where I can pick up the phone and say, what are we really doing here? And I say nine out of ten times because sometimes I'll get that one percent who won't pick up my calls, or you know, it'll be LA lawyer that I don't know that because we're getting more and more of out of San Diego, you know. We are. And that that makes it challenging. You know, that will certainly make it challenging because then, you know, they'll they'll send me to their associate's associate, and I won't be able to break through because there's a different way of practicing. So, you know, it's that makes it difficult. And, you know, then we're kind of back to like, you know, we just have to kind of fight it and leave it to the client to decide, okay, well, how much do you want to bend? Or do we want to kind of be aggressive on the way back? And do you have the resources to support that? I've learned throughout the years to have be really frank and direct and set expectations. You know, like I I say flat out, like, I don't give out my cell phone number. That is a hard rule for me because I am some problem. But you know, in family, it's different than like in business or employee, like in other practice areas, because some corporate clients expect that. They expect they pay a lot of money to their lawyer, they expect their lawyer to be on speed dial. If they have a deal that's needs immediate attention, that's time sensitive, you know. In our cases, you know, the time sensitive is like you have CPS showing up at your door. But, you know, I for me, like if it's, you know, 6 p.m. on any given night. I mean, I have kids literally jumping on my head. I'm not gonna be productive. I'm not gonna be able to be my best self to you. So I'm not gonna, I'm not even gonna open that door. And I say that up front. And if somebody doesn't like it, then I'm not a good fit and I'm okay with that. It's boundaries setting boundaries. We have these conversations about setting boundaries.

SPEAKER_02 26:55

A couple of times I've given my cell phone number to clients like it's only for this one time. Do not use it. People don't hear the part don't use it, or it's a one time nope, or I don't give up my cell phone number once they have it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:08

Because you give it to them for that one hearing weekends, 11 at night, tiny time. No, and remote work, I think, has made it more challenging. It's given flexibility, but there's also set expectations that you're gonna be available because you're working remote. And so I laid that out on the front end and have those conversations. Say, this is how this is how I work, my availability. I will always make sure that you have a response that, you know, you're the I tell you that we and now, you know, I have associates, we're able to work as a team and kind of triage, but to be able to set those expectations. Like I'm not, you might not get an immediate response. And most of the time, if somebody's in a crisis, having an immediate response isn't gonna help because they're so in it. You know, they're like in freakout mode. You know, he's 15 minutes late, and what my child is dead, you know, whatever, you know. No, that's, you know, God forbid. But it's usually not the case. It's just kind of like taking a minute to like, and so by the time I speak with them, like, okay, has it been resolved? Kind of for the most part, but I still need to talk through it.

SPEAKER_02 28:11

Yeah. So what tips would you have for those that are in crisis mode that have a lawyer and feel irritated, they cannot get a hold of them right away?

SPEAKER_00 28:20

Well, I mean, the first thing I would say avoiding is going the Chat GPT route and Googling everything under the sun because God knows, these days is half the time you'll be vortexing in the wrong direction. You know, I I tell my clients going through this process, even if it's the most benign and like simple divorce, everybody gets along to make sure you have a good support system. You know, that you have at least one person that you can have on your speed dial that's not your lawyer, that you can rely on that isn't necessarily going to give you advice, but can support you through it from the emotional side.

SPEAKER_01 28:57

So we had another guest on here who went through her own divorce and she started a support group. There's this group here in San Diego called the Group SD, and it's just like a networking group for adults, and they meet every Friday in Ansenitas, and she's one of the leaders of that group. And she started a group for women to have a buddy system for like women who are going through divorce and women who have gone through it so that like they can kind of be each other's support because she felt like when she was going through her divorce, that she couldn't see the light at the end of the tunnel, and she just felt like she was going to be in it forever. And she felt like talking to other women who had been through it made her understand that it will eventually get better. Yeah. And so um I think she's found some success in bringing people together. And I think a lot of people who have been through it feel purpose in helping people who are going through it.

SPEAKER_00 29:51

Yeah. Well, those that have kind of come on the other side. I mean, how many lawyers do we know that went into law because they went through their own litigation to some extent, right? Or they had some kind of impact or or they had some interface with an attorney for better or worse, right? And they felt like they needed to go and kind of right the wrongs. And I I think some of the hardest cases I've had with opposing counsel are those that I feel like are relitigating their own divorce or relitigating their own experience sometimes. Like it seems so personal.

SPEAKER_01 30:24

I um I came from the defense side. I did defense work for like six years before switching over to plaintiff's work. And the hardest part of the transition was dealing with consumers as opposed to businesses, right? Because when I was defending companies, my clients were always either insurance adjusters, CEOs who had been sued before. They understood how the law worked. And they, whenever things went not their way, it wasn't my fault. It was the law's fault. And they could see I was doing everything I could to get the best result possible. But representing the consumers, that's not always the case because they don't always understand how the laws work. And that's that's so hard. Managing expectations when the law is just not on their side.

SPEAKER_00 31:06

Yeah. Or, you know, the facts are sometimes what makes it even harder is when your client doesn't accept kind of their own role or maybe the the way that they've contributed and they hate hearing that. You know, having those conversations are the hardest with my clients where I'm saying, well, you know, maybe, you know, have you thought about, you know, this reaction or that reaction and how that may have contributed? No, that's the worst thing to say. No, because like, no, you're not supposed to say that. You're on my side. You know, I'm perfect. I'm the best parent ever. Why are you suggesting that I somehow contributed to this like shit storm that we're in, you know? Like, so that's rough. That's hard because that's where I'm like, okay, therapist, come and support because I, you know, I just can help navigate you through the process here, but I can't fix it.

ed Flag Green Flag Relationship Habits

SPEAKER_01 32:02

Yeah. Okay, so now we're gonna play a game called red flag, green flag. So you see our glittery, glittery flags are in your hand. We are going to throw up relationship scenarios, and you tell us if it's a red flag or a green flag. All right.

SPEAKER_02 32:20

Red flag or green flag. Couples avoiding difficult conversations because they do not want to have problems in their relationship. Why?

SPEAKER_00 32:30

Uh, because if you can have difficult conversations, then that's gonna lead to passive aggressiveness, that's gonna lead to bitterness, that's ultimately gonna lead to the what I call my World War III divorces. Um, that's a side note though, why I'm a big fan of the prenup. And not necessarily actually getting the prenup, but having the conversations around a prenup because it forces you to have those difficult conversations, like how are you gonna manage money and why are your priorities gonna be? So, yeah, the more open communication you can have, the stronger your relationship is gonna be. And even if you ultimately are not good partners and you decide to go the divorce route, at least then you'll be able to have those difficult conversations and be able to divide your your assets and your debts and figure out your parenting schedules and still be able to, you know, see the other side, see the light on the other side.

SPEAKER_02 33:27

I think most people don't even think about doing that. They just go into it, get married, and then problems arise and you deal with it the best you can. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:34

Well, yeah. You're like survival mode, especially.

SPEAKER_01 33:37

But I think as people get married later, those conversations happen a lot more because people are a lot more cognizant now of who they want to marry, what they're willing to tolerate, what they're not. Yeah. Okay, the red flag or green flag? Parents using children as messengers throughout a divorce. Super red flag. Super super, big, super tall.

SPEAKER_00 34:00

Yes. Kind of going back to having those conversations about how the kids, the the survivors of the divorce, right? It's you have your your parents, certainly, but it's really the kids that are really just trying to survive and what's going to be their new normal. And if you are using your kids as messengers, I mean, one, that's generally a number one order that the court issues is to not use kids as messengers. But like on a practical level, is you're you're making the kids part of your situation and versus trying to shield them, you know, to allow them. Yeah, it's a heavy burden, you know. And if you're like, tell your dad this or tell your mom that, like, no, they shouldn't have that responsibility. They're kids. I mean, I can tell you, like, not that my a little bit different, but like growing up where I had to grow up and be an adult very early on just because of my family dynamic, that's hard. You know, that's like you kind of miss out on childhood a little bit of that innocence of just going out and like not thinking about the world's problems. We have the rest of our lives to deal with adulting, right? Like when you're a kid, just enjoy the sunshine on your face, you know?

SPEAKER_02 35:14

Yeah, I think I agree with you that children should not be exposed to parental divorce and their problems. But in general, it seems like everyone I know who had a tough and had to grow up quick seems to become a really responsible adult and does well in life. Well, for most at least those people that I have met. You, you.

SPEAKER_01 35:32

I think adversity could create character if the person is strong enough, or in other situations, like the people who aren't our friends who have just like completely fallen apart because of trauma.

SPEAKER_00 35:45

But here's the other thing is when you when your kids, I mean, think of your own kids, right? Like when your kids are growing up in a house where they're seeing behaviors by the adults, their most trusted adults around them, that's what they see as a relationship. That's what they model. You know, when when I have parents coming to me and they're like, Yeah, we stay together for the kids, you know, but we live in different parts of the house and, you know, sleep in different bedrooms and it's fine, but we're here together for the kids, you know. But I'm like, well, your kids are seeing that, and that's what they define as a healthy relationship. So when they grow up, you know, and form their own relationships, that's what they're gonna gravitate toward. And not everybody might be as stable as you guys, you know, where you're kind of all good and good parents, maybe just in a parallel way, but that's that's what they're gonna see as the basis of their relationship.

SPEAKER_01 36:32

I feel like parents have no excuse now. At least if our parents did things to traumatize us, they had no idea. The long term effect. But now we all know. Maybe, yeah. I mean, there's a lot more regulations in this country, I'll tell you that.

SPEAKER_02 36:45

Well, what about couples going to therapy before problems escalate? With that, they must have problems to be going to therapy. So before it gets totally worse.

SPEAKER_00 36:55

Um, well, I will say green light in terms of recognizing there are problems and re recognizing that they need to be addressed, right? Because for some couples, you have, you know, let's say there's still maybe some path to reconciliation, right? There's problems, you recognize there's problems. Okay, is this something we can work through? And oftentimes I get those calls where like, oh, problem, problems. Maybe there's, you know, cheating, maybe there's, you know, financial mismanagement, maybe there's some some things, you know, like, okay, is this something that they're like, okay, we're trying to get work through it. Okay, where are you trying to work through it? Is there a path? Is there a way that you can maybe find for the relationship? Other times there's problems, it's not gonna save the relationship, but are these things we can work through, like parenting issues or maybe coming up with a parenting plan? And that's where you can go into a mediation type setting, or maybe a coaching session where you can have some assistance on finding a way to divorce, right, and end your relationship, but still be in a co-parent.

hould Unhappy Parents Stay Together

SPEAKER_02 38:12

Here's the magic question that I think any person would answer differently, but I want to hear your perspective. If a couple is unhappy with each other, should they stay together if they have kids? If they just they're not attracted to each other, they don't like spending time together, but one of them thinks it is best for the kids, or maybe both do. Do you think it's worth going to child therapy then and trying to work through things that may be unfixable? Or do you think, like in a situation you commented on before, that where they live in separate rooms and the children are gonna mirror their behavior when they grow up, do you think it's better for them to split?

SPEAKER_00 38:55

I from kind of my experience and seeing how these kind of things tend to play out, I mean, my opinion, I'm not, you know, therapist, caveat, all this stuff. I think that if a couple is not a couple, right, and they're just kind of coexisting, that there's resentment in there that is ultimately it's festering and it's gonna build up. And at some point something's gonna trigger, whether it's somebody's voice or whether it's somebody like some action that's going to kind of tip this that scale. And that's what is going to cause the code World War III divorces, right? Where it's somebody who's sitting in that festering space because they're unhappy. Maybe like it's okay, maybe it's like comfort, maybe like it's it's sort of the the normal, it's how we do things, and it's okay. It's okay. It's not great, it's okay, right? But if you're inside, like you know that there's better out there. Like I could be happy. I could be in a relationship where I'm actually attracted to my partner, God forbid, there's some intimacy. You know, I could be in a situation that's gonna actually like help me grow versus just kind of exist. Like it's those feelings that maybe you they're so buried deep inside right now, while you're in the hustle and bustle of every day raising kids, that it's okay. Right. It's okay. But at some point it's it's not gonna be okay. And it's whether at that point it's gonna be what's gonna make you so angry that you're gonna want to bury your spouse, as we see in our divorces, right? Or versus like, you know what, I recognize this is really not a good space. Let's just call a spade a spade and work through on how we're gonna co-parent the kids and still be there for them, quite possibly in the same way. But they're gonna know that we're much happier living our separate lives.

ow To Keep Divorce From Becoming War

SPEAKER_01 40:55

Okay, so now it's time for let's get ready. This is an audience question. Submit it. Let's see. My spouse and I are considering a divorce, but we're trying to stay amicable for the sake of our kids. The problem is that the emotions keep getting in the way of every conversation, and it always turns into an argument. How can couples approach divorce in a way that protects their children and keeps things from becoming a war?

SPEAKER_00 41:24

Well, it sort of goes to what we were just talking about is trying to have open communication and acknowledging there's issues to begin with, and finding time and space to have those conversations outside of the kids. You know, like maybe at a coffee shop, like somewhere neutral, like neutral ground. Like if you are just so much at an impasse and those anger and hurt and resentment feelings are just so high because you're at that tipping point.

SPEAKER_02 41:49

It's about timing and managing your emotions and the other persons too during any conversation.

SPEAKER_01 41:56

Yeah, I think it's important to acknowledge too that relationships are just hard. It is hard sharing your life with someone. And then you throw in kids and work and all the chaos that's going on in the world and how we're constantly evolving, and the person has to constantly accept how you're evolving, and you have to accept how they're evolving and hopefully you grow together, but maybe you don't, and then you have to decide can I deal with this new human that I didn't pick? And it's just like all of these things, and I think it's important to take a step back and give ourselves grace for like it's it's not that easy because I think even like if you look at our grandmas or our moms and they'll look at us and be like, which is why like you're so bored, you're like you're getting. How would you translate that? Well, basic. Yes, I understand.

SPEAKER_00 42:48

Like you're going crazy because of all the facts.

SPEAKER_01 42:49

Yeah, like you're so you're basically so bored that you're trying to create problems because you're bored.

ivorce Prep Tips And Closing

SPEAKER_00 42:55

Sometimes, and I and I see this also, like people kind of have guilt about like I have everything. My husband or my wife loves me and is showering me with gifts and like nothing is wrong, but yet I feel like, you know, I'm drowning inside, right? I mean, and sometimes that's something that maybe could be worked through in therapy, or sometimes there really are other issues that are there. I mean, who knows? Relationships are hard. I mean, even like I've been with Matt for, God, we met in my first year practice, right? So we've been together for 17 years now. And I swear to God, like I have multiple emotions throughout the day where I'm like, why are we together? Versus like, I'm so happy he's here, versus like, oh, I could just, I'm doing everything anyway. So like that's literally me too. I'm making all of us feel like you know, I'm like, oh my God, the dishwasher still has dishes in it. And I just came home from a day's work and I have to take all the dishes out of the dishwasher and I have to make dinner, I have to do this, and I have to take care of the kids. Right. Like it's just those frustrations. But then it's like, okay, well, is this something that's gonna cause my relationship to fall apart? Or is it something that you know we can talk through? But I'm I'm like, you left the dishes again in the dishwasher and it drove me crazy. But I say that, right? I like I said it and it's like okay. I'm still pissed about it, but at least I got it off my chest.

SPEAKER_01 44:23

So today's glam tip is gonna come from Anna for people starting a divorce process.

SPEAKER_02 44:30

What's the best thing they can do for themselves?

SPEAKER_00 44:32

The best, I think, kind of on multiple levels. One is to make sure you make sure you have a sport system. That's not Chat GPT. Like a human that is going to be, you know, there for you to help you kind of hold your hand. The next is to really think through on where you want to be. What are your priorities? What is it that you're kind of what assuming you've decided, okay, this is the route, like the relationship isn't working, we're gonna split up. Made that decision. So what's next is okay, what are my where do I want to be? Like, what do I want to do with the house? How do we envision co-parenting if there are kids? You know, what's what's super important? Like I need financial stability. So that way when you have the conversation with a lawyer, you can have those kind of questions in mind. And when the lawyer inevitably asks you, okay, what are we what are we doing here for you, you can have an idea of you know what's what's important and what are your priorities. And then, you know, there's the practical advice about making sure you can gather your financial documents and have some visibility into your finances. And if you don't, to make sure you have that information ready for your lawyer also.

SPEAKER_02 45:51

Well, thank you so much for taking time out of your very busy schedule and joining us on the glamorous grind. We're honored to have you. And of course, I love you as a friend. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 46:04

Divorce law may deal with conflict, but conversations like this remind us that empathy is just as important as legal strategy.

SPEAKER_02 46:12

And sometimes the lawyers who make the biggest difference are the ones who remember that behind every case file is a real family.

SPEAKER_01 46:19

A huge thank you to Anna Romanskaya for joining us today and sharing her perspective. Make sure to hit subscribe and follow us so you never miss an episode.

SPEAKER_02 46:31

And if you have a question you'd like us to answer on Let's Get Gritty, leave it in the comments or send it to podcastantonianmoranda.com. Thank you for listening. We'll see you the next time on the glamourus grind.