DUI Defense Without Shame

Most people picture a DUI as a headline-worthy meltdown, but the reality is usually quieter and more relatable: dinner with friends, a hard week, a bad call, and then flashing lights in the rearview mirror. We sit down with DUI defense attorneys Lauren Angelos and Cole Casey to talk about what really happens after a driving under the influence arrest and why smart, successful people can still find themselves in the system. The goal is simple: replace stigma with clarity and help you understand your rights before panic and shame make everything worse. 

We get into what a good DUI lawyer actually does, why “cheap” representation can backfire, and why public defenders are often the most underrated talent in criminal court. Lauren and Cole explain how they think about rehab versus punishment, especially for second or third offenders, and why early treatment and a real plan can protect both the client and the community. We also unpack the quiet career threats that come with DUI cases, including collateral consequences for doctors, med students, pilots, military members, and anyone facing professional licensing boards. 

Then we go practical. We break down the sleeping-in-your-car scenario and how laws differ between “actual physical control” states and places like California that generally require proof of driving. We also cover field sobriety tests, breathalyzer testing, implied consent, blood tests, and why BAC timing and alcohol absorption can change the entire prosecution story. Finally, we flag the growing confusion around marijuana DUI and cannabis impairment, where there is no clean 0.08-style limit and a whiff of suspicion can lead to arrest and a blood draw. 

If you know someone who drives after “just a couple,” share this conversation with them, subscribe so you do not miss what’s next, and leave us a review with the biggest DUI myth you want us to tackle.

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🎙️ Hosts: Ilona Antonyan & Mila Arutunian
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Transcript

DUI Stigma And Real People

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Most people think they will never get a DUI. They imagine it happens to someone reckless or completely out of control.

SPEAKER_04 0:06

We represent a lot of people that are far from failures. Doctors, airline pilots, you know, other lawyers, judges. You're a good human, but guess what? You made a mistake.

SPEAKER_03 0:18

But in reality, many DUI cases start with something ordinary drinks, dinner, meeting up with friends, or someone feeling fine to drive home.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

And then suddenly, flashing lights in the rear view mirror.

SPEAKER_00 0:30

I think that's the biggest thing that people have forgotten about. Part of our system is supposed to be rehabilitative.

SPEAKER_03 0:43

Welcome back to the Glamorous Grind, where we break down the law and how it shows up in real life.

SPEAKER_02 0:48

Today we're diving into DUI defense, one of the most misunderstood areas of criminal law.

SPEAKER_03 0:54

Joining us are defense attorneys Laura and Cole, who focus their practice on representing individuals charged with driving under the influence.

SPEAKER_02 1:01

We're going to talk about why they chose this field and what happens when someone finds themselves in this situation. So thank you guys so much for joining us. Thanks for having us. I'm very excited to have you and we want to hear all about everything. The yin-yang. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

That makes the firm work. And I think that's what it is. It's we are polar opposite people. Um, the way we handle cases is different, the way our brains work are very different. He's very big picture. I'm very detailed. Actually, this came to me yesterday. I was thinking, and I don't want to offend you because I I but I don't know if this is the right analogy.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

I'm not easily offended.

SPEAKER_04 1:36

I'm the criminal law, not easily offended.

SPEAKER_00 1:39

Easily offend.

SPEAKER_04 1:40

Not easily offended, but I can do the offender, but go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Um, is that we're almost like a restaurant, like front of the house, back of the house.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

Right? Is that I'm not I'm not the person in the front going, you know, hey, look at this. But Cole is, and Cole's welcoming and everyone wants to talk to him, and he knows and he'll make you feel safe. And he comes in the back and we talk about what needs to be done in a nitty-gritty details. And that's me. I'm not the showstopper, I'm not trying to be that person. And it works really well for us.

SPEAKER_04 2:05

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: No, it does. It's been a really good um synergy. You know, I've I've often joked that, you know, in court, you know how it is. When you're the courtroom lawyer, you get all the accolades, you get all the attaboys, all the people, oh, you did a great job on that case. Well, nobody ever takes the time to ask me, how did you get there? Because I always say, talk to her. We've had clients who say, I cannot thank you enough for doing this. You you've done this great work for us. And I always say, you know what? Thank Lord. Because I kind of conceive myself as the wind-up toy, and she does the winding, points me in the right direction, puts a file in my hand, and says, off you go.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 2:40

And it works.

SPEAKER_00 2:41

Especially for big fights or mean clients. I'm like, oh, I'm gonna get him real riled up for this one. And it works, and it's great.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

It does.

SPEAKER_00 2:47

And I he, oh, he it took me a while to get there. He drove me crazy. Again, I'm O C D every I mean, notes on everything, highlights this and that. And I we would go to trial and I would have prepared months and months, and I have, I can tell you what page something's on, and you know, this and that. And and when are we gonna go over this cole? When are we going to do this? Morning of trial, five minutes before, I'm just I'm so annoyed. And I hand him what he's supposed to prepare. He looks over, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and hands it back to me. And I'm like, this is gonna be a disaster. And it isn't, and he nails it and he knows it. Our brains are just so different. And so the way I can work something up for him, he can look at that. But but the the good thing about cult too is that you're you're like that for everyone. We have public defenders, we have a lot of young attorneys who come and ask him, you know, how do you do that? How do you get out of the minutiae and be a good trial lawyer? I think that's really different as a trial lawyer, um, and I'm research and motions and things like that. And so I think it takes two very different people to make things work. But we have the same goal. We do the same quality of life and what's important to us and the balance.

SPEAKER_04 3:53

Most of the people that we represent, we do a lot of drunk driving cases, some domestic violence cases, things like that. But we've also handled, you know, everything up to first-degree murder. But the majority of the people that we represent are not criminals. And I'll tell that to prospective clients on the phone that are beating themselves up. I've ruined my life, I've ruined my life, I'm so screwed. And I and I tell them, no, you haven't. Stay in the game with us here. Okay, we're gonna work this, or you're gonna we're gonna work together. But if I'm telling them that we're gonna work together, that means I have to be accessible to them just as much as I expect them to be accessible to me. Makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 4:29

So much of lawyering, regardless, I mean, on the fields, criminal law, family law, for me, employment law, people have so much uncertainty and that causes so much anxiety because usually when they're in that situation, their entire life is about to change.

SPEAKER_01 4:44

Right.

SPEAKER_02 4:44

And it I think part of hiring a lawyer is having that stability of this person will kind of be my guide.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

Right.

SPEAKER_02 4:54

And it will be okay. Somehow, I don't know how, but it will be okay. So I think from that perspective, it is worth it to pay a premium. Like that type of access.

SPEAKER_04 5:06

And we're not for everybody. I mean, it's just that uh you know, and I tell this to a lot of prospective clients when they call in. It's like, you know, if you're uh you know, a college kid that's working at Best Buy and you're in trouble, uh paying what we charge just isn't worth it for you. I mean, we're not gonna deliver that much value, and we're gonna take every last nickel you have for the next two years of your life. Why? And so I tell people that. But there's, you know, it's that whole 80-20 rule. You do a really good job for 20 percent of the people, and the other 80 percent send them on their way and wish them well. But you don't have to be and we see a lot of our colleagues fall prey to this, and they just have to take every case that comes in the door.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

Aaron Ross Powell The biggest thing for me is you need to trust the person you're gonna be working with. This is a big deal. Whatever you're going through, you know, employment, family, if criminal, it doesn't matter. This is one of the most important things they've ever been through, maybe the most money they've ever spent on something. And so the relationship you have with the person on the other end that you feel like I can call this person. And some people love calling and calling, like, ah, shut up, you're fine, it's not gonna be, you know, that that really that protective man that he's able to be versus a handholder. And so it is nice to have someone who says, you know, you can come to this firm and you're safe, regardless of what you're looking for. You're gonna have guidance, you're gonna have access, but you need to trust us that we know what's best. We're gonna give you those options and put you in a position where you have multiple choices to make, multiple good choices. Um, and so that's what I pride ourselves on is that you can trust what we're doing. You can trust that between the two of us, there's multiple sets of eyes. We've had so many conversations about the case and the best way to do it. Um, and so yeah, the the the boutique farm works for us the more.

SPEAKER_03 6:47

Well, hopefully I never get a DUI or commit any crime. But if I do, I feel comfortable hearing that you're so detail-oriented and you can look at something five minutes and go and win. I've come to you.

SPEAKER_04 6:59

I I sort of bristle at being called a criminal defense attorney because again, we don't we don't represent criminals. You know, I mean we have some bright lines that we cases that we don't take. Um we don't touch things like child molestation, we don't touch rape or sex crimes.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

Um, me personally, animal animal abuse is on my list of no thank you.

SPEAKER_04 7:21

Again, and the reason for that isn't that we couldn't do a good job with them, but there is somebody better out there that can divorce themselves from the facts of that case that you'll be better served. And we know who those people are, we'll refer them out.

SPEAKER_03 7:35

Say better call? Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Trust Your Lawyer And Fight Stigma

SPEAKER_04 7:36

Yeah, better call, I don't call Saul. But we do tell people that you know I I don't like people calling my clients criminals, you know. You're you're at a cocktail party. Oh, you represent criminals. And it's funny because we do again a lot of drunk driving cases, and people become very sanctimonious about that. You represent drunk drivers, they break the law. It's like you probably broke the law on your way to this meeting today. You probably broke the law last night when you rolled through that stop sign. Does that make you a criminal? Now, if you roll through that stop sign every time you go home and that one day there happened to be a kid on a bike and you hit him, are you a criminal now? I mean, does that make you a bad person? Because we see this all the time. And it's one of the things we have to overcome with a lot of jurors is the stigma that nobody thinks drunk driving is a good thing. They don't. I I mean I think everybody agrees that they shouldn't do it, but so many people have done it and then become very judgmental about it. I ask this in jury selection all the time. How many of you, be honest, at some point in your life, have maybe driven a couple of times, maybe even just once, go back even to your college days when maybe you know you shouldn't? Almost every hand goes up. And those are the people I want on my jury, because I'm saying, look, my client isn't a criminal. My client was one of the unlucky ones that got caught or hopefully did had an accident, or, you know, God forbid there's uh some serious injuries or a fatality, but very rarely do we see the hardened criminals coming into our office, you know, the gangbangers and we just we just don't. And they're not to call us.

SPEAKER_03 9:07

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: What do you think about those who are on their third DUI and they're still driving and endangering the lives of others?

SPEAKER_04 9:14

Aaron Powell I think that the first goal is to find out what's going on with them. Right. We try to get them into treatment right away. And that's what the court wants to see.

SPEAKER_00 9:22

Aaron Powell, I think that's the biggest uh thing that people have forgotten about our our system is that part of our system is supposed to be rehabilitative and by putting someone in prison or something doesn't necessarily help. We've all we all who are who we are for a reason. I I listened to your very first episode where you were talking about both of you and how you kind of came to be here in America and all of that. And to me, that is it is so important to see that we all have our story. We all come from a childhood that puts you into a position where you know you are the adult you are. And some of us have uh, you know, access to therapy or to parents that are home all the time, and some of us don't. And so to see and then judge adults when we are in this position at our worst, to not realize there's a lot more than someone who's just a bad person who, you know, there's poor judgment calls, sure. There's also, you know, horrible situations where they're doing their best or they don't know how to do better. And so to understand that it's not just, okay, well, right, let me get this great plea deal and get this person gone. But we are all living in this world. So, right, if you have someone who's offended three times, it's dangerous for us, dangerous for you. But what's going on with that person? Because that's not very typical. And so to say, how can we help community in general by making sure that this person's not here again? By the their next offense, they're not killing someone. And a lot of people forget about that. And in the courts all the time, we're pushing for other options than jail or prison. And we're kind of looked at like, we're the problem, when you go, no, but we're gonna be here again. If we don't solve this, we're especially with our veterans. We have so many military veterans, and that's not just UI, that's domestic violence and you know, robbery and that I mean anything, resisting arrest. And you realize, hey, there's there's an underlying mental health issue here, undiagnosed, untreated, or even if it is diagnosed and treated, that we're still struggling with, that people forget the the human component in our job a lot. And I think that we do a good job of recognizing that, addressing that early on.

SPEAKER_04 11:15

Um of the things that that I say to judges a lot of the time, if we have somebody like that who's a second or a third offender, you know, I'll have uh an opponent, a prosecutor that wants them to go into custody. And so when I when we take the case from the beginning, the first thing we do is say, we gotta start treatment now. And if it's like a third offense or a felony case, you need to get into alcohol treatment immediately or drug treatment, whatever it is. Typically that's inpatient live-in rehab. Many times they've never availed themselves. They didn't even know that they could. They didn't know that they could go through their health insurance and find something like that. So we get them into a program. Then once they finish that program, now the case is up and running, and now they're into an outpatient program where they're still being monitored and tested and all of that. Many times we'll have put such a runway in front of them, three, four, five months of great treatment, sobriety, everything. And then I'll look at my opponent and I'll look at the judge and I'll tell them that. So you want to interrupt all that now? You want to th he's got back with his family, he's working, he or she is working, earning a living, sober, and you want to put the brakes on all that, send him to the county jail where when the time he gets out, he's had no treatment, he's had he's lost his job, has estranged from his family now, and then when he reoffends, we'll all stand around scratching our heads wondering what we could have done differently.

SPEAKER_02 12:41

You guys are talking this entire conversation. I have goosebumps. Because it's so and it's just so many things that no one thinks about. It's really sound. It's true. And it's you both are so passionate and believe so deeply in what you do and your clients, and that in and of itself is so important and it's so rare.

SPEAKER_03 13:00

You're counselors at criminal law.

SPEAKER_04 13:03

Yeah. We are, and and and again, we're very different. You know, uh she talked to the clients, and it's like, here's a cup of tea and a warm blanket. And I'm kind of more like putting them in a head like, come on, not you know, that kind of stuff. Uh that's a funny real quickly, we have a uh we had a client years ago, um won't use the word, but you'll remember up in Orange County. But if you saw the guy physically imposing, big guy, 6'3, shaved head, big old thick goatee, tattoos, biceps, bulging, owns a big construction company up in uh Orange County, right? This guy is the looking at him, and and personality-wise, very alpha, very type A, all of that. But he was afraid that he had screwed up so badly that he was going to lose his company. And he was having nightmares about it. He's like, this is my how I support my family. And he would call me, he would text me and he would say, Hey, do you have a minute? Yeah, sure. You know, I'm I'm handling cases in San Diego, Orange County, Riverside. I'm in my car a lot driving, just so I handle a ton of business, as I'm sure all of us do handle a ton of business when you're in the car. So I call him and he would say, This wasn't wouldn't be what you would expect from a guy that looks like that. He'd say, I I I just really need to hear your voice right now. I'm like, call her. Call her. Okay. Um I'm flattered, but w what's on your mind? And he would just be like, I j I don't know. I'm just and I'd have to talk him in off the ledge. But it was that kind of a vibe like yeah, like a counselor where you're you're being told I'm I'm putting my faith in you, not just in the court system, but to help me navigate through sometimes for our clients, most of the time for our clients, the absolute worst they've ever been through. And keep in mind, we represent a lot of people that are far from failures. Doctors, airline pilots, you know, other lawyers, judges, we've represented all of them. It's hard to look at those people and say, yeah, you're just a a career screw up. No, you're not. You're a good human that's kicked ass your entire life. But guess what? You made a mistake. And people do do that. They do make mistakes. And that's how we're going to represent you in court.

SPEAKER_03 15:18

I really love it that you guys don't represent uh child molesters and offenders. Because I wish they could just obviously chop their thing off, put them away, and that's it. Don't do criminal justice for them.

SPEAKER_04 15:33

As a as a you know as a member of society, as a parent. Um and you know, the same thing I think with people that commit sex crimes, rapes, and things like that. It's just uh look, I can go on my criminal defense attorney's soapbox, they're entitled to a vigorous defense under the constitution. Yeah, great, great, good. But not from me, because my heart isn't in that. Right. And there is somebody better, and I would be doing them a disservice. This is what I'll tell them. I would be doing you a disservice if I took your case, because this is not my wheelhouse. There are people that thrive in that space, but that's not us. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_02 16:06

Right. It's so different. So what I used to represent employers when they were sued by employees, and I used to do PI work on the defense side. And one of the main reasons I wanted to switch over to the plaintiff's side is because when you're on defense, especially working in big law, you don't get to choose who you represent.

SPEAKER_01 16:25

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:26

And whether you believe in a case or not, you gotta build the best defense you can. And it was really, really difficult for me. I really struggled because I felt like I was just an awful lawyer when I didn't believe in the case.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:40

And it it is a disservice to the client. Now, alone in all is like the second I find out a client's lying or untruthful or you know, I just fire them. Yeah. Okay, go ahead. I don't I won't even take a lean, they can go take the case somewhere else because I I also can't represent cases I don't believe in.

SPEAKER_04 16:56

Trevor Burrus, you don't believe in it. Well, that's why I think the in the criminal justice system, really the unsung heroes are the public defenders. Because they don't get to choose. And they get, you know, in many cases, the worst of the worst. They get the people that don't care, the people that treat them like they're terrible people just because they're trying to help them. But God bless them, because they they perform such a valuable role and they don't get any credit for it. You know, we have lots of friends that are public defenders, we've trained lots of public defenders, we refer cases, you know, to say, hey, just stay with the public defender. And I'll tell this to people. I guess we're allowed to use profanity here, so I will. But many times I'll talk to people who are price shopping and I'll say, look, if you're price shopping, I I'm not the guy. I I we're not the people you want if you're just price shopping. But do yourself a favor, if price is the issue for you, don't hire some dog shit lawyer that's just gonna say, oh, I'll be the cheapest guy in town. I always say, well, congratulations, you're about to be represented by Walmart. He's cheap for a reason, because that's the only way that they can compete against us, is I can undercut you price. Congratulations, you're being represented by the lowest bidder. Hope that works out for you. And I tell them at that point, go to the public defenders, because the public defenders are in those courts every day. They know the judges, they know the prosecutors, and most importantly, they know the law and they know what they're doing. And if the public defender you have is brand new, there is a supervisor that's watching them, and the supervisor that's watching them. You're going to come out of this okay. If you want cheap, go with free, and there are going to be better lawyers.

SPEAKER_03 18:32

I think this is golden advice, and I have a personal story on that where I've realized that the public and others who wanted to hire me when I was a new lawyer to defend them against DUI for like what,$1,500 or whatever it was cheap to go, you know, plea not guilty over the counter and then appear and then plea them out. I realized there was no point. I wasn't delivering any value to those people. They could get those services for free. But when I just opened up my new m my law firm, I had everything coming through the doors and was getting a lot of DUI cases. But I really felt like I was not giving them anything different than they would get for free. Next boyfriend of mine, when I was in my early 20s, shortly after I opened up my law firm, I met him, he got a DUI driving a gas lamp. And I'm like, you know, go, I don't, like, I'm no longer doing criminal, like, it's not my cup of tea. I don't like it. Go hire a lawyer. And he's like, no, like just go up here in court for me, just do it. So I did him a favor, which we still laugh about nowadays. Um, he pled guilty. I got him public service. I went to court and I didn't really know, I didn't know he was rich. So I got him like 10 days of public service to go clean the garbage on the highways and under the highways. And he was a financial advisor, and so he had to go do that. And he got bitten by bees.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

Oh no.

SPEAKER_03 19:52

So he didn't finish his work day and they didn't give him credit for that day. He had to go back, and it took him a long time to complete his public service. He's like, he's like, I was getting paid like minimum wage to go clean this, I could have just paid this and be done. I'm like, I had no idea you were wealthy back then. I'm like, that's what I just did because I didn't know any better for everybody. I would just give them public service. Because they people were looking for a cheap lawyer. I was cheap, out of law school, new lawyer, and doing public service was a thing to do. So if uh you are conscious about price, get a public defender.

SPEAKER_04 20:28

I mean, they're better lawyers. Again, we know who the players are in town, who the real lawyers are, and um so many of the people that are out there marketing themselves, that's what it really is. It's a marketing machine. They have salespeople that, you know, call themselves case managers. Bullshit. You're not managing it. Your job is to separate them from their checkbook. That's your job. And you're paid commission for that. I don't know the ethics of that. I don't want to know the ethics of that. All I know is that we don't do it.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

And I think a big thing, too, that people don't realize is when you are hiring that person that might be - I don't I hope we don't have anyone who's 1,500 charging 1,500 anymore for a DY.

SPEAKER_04 21:06

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: If you look far enough, you'll find it. Right.

SPEAKER_00 21:08

But 2,500 things like that, I think what people don't realize is maybe you have a court one court date, your attorney can go and plead you guilty. There's no issues in the case. Maybe your attorney is comfortable with that. What if there is an issue? What if you need an expert? Where does that money come from? So then your client can't afford it. You're not doing that as an attorney for your client, where if they went to the public defender, they do get a private investigator as part of that. So a lot of times people go, well, my case is, you know, there's really important. There's an accident. There's well, but do you have the funds to do this? And I I took a class in law school that was called Access to Justice, and it talks about there's there's a big gap between people who you know are trying to look for attorneys and can pay for one versus you know getting a public defender for free. And it it's hard. There is an issue here. But being the attorney that charges fifteen hundred bucks, twenty five hundred bucks is not the solution. I don't think. I don't think you're doing your client just. Service. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 22:01

It's also the same in family law. You know, when someone is looking for a cheap lawyer, you get a cheap lawyer who doesn't know what they're doing because they're new. Exactly. And they're not going to be per well prepared and know your facts and really argue well for you in court because they don't have that experience. They take everything that walks through the door, they'll take a DUI, kind of like when I was first out of law school, right? I'll take your DUI, I'll take, I'll draft your trust, I'll do this. I did everything under the sun because I was new and I wasn't good at anything the first year. So it was all the same. I was learning. But there are people who take family law cases or criminal law cases or whatever may come their way because they need to make money, they need to make a living. Correct. And they're not going to deliver value or do you any good. It's just to pay their bills. And you don't want to go to a lawyer like that. No. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_04 22:47

Right. And again, it's it's our philosophy has really always been that we're not for everybody. And yes, if someone has a situation where there could be a potential trial or motion work that needs to be done, we kind of have to brace them in advance that, you know, look, there's going to be additional costs because we have to bring in outside people. We may need an accident reconstructionist, we may need a a blood alcohol toxicologist, we may need a medical examiner, we may need all of these things. It depends on what the issues are. But you need to know that it doesn't stop with our fee. There's going to be more if we decide to go that route. And I think something Lauren touched on earlier is, and I and I will say this to clients, my job when I'm in court is to try to put you, the client, and there's no nice way to say this, in an uncomfortable spot. Meaning you've got a great deal that's on the table right now, but you've also got a hell of a defense if we want to push this all the way to a trial. You're going to make that choice. You know, we're going to give you the tools and say, here's what we think. And we get this all the time. You know, what do you think my chances are? Like we're going to be in front of a jury. You're going to be in front of the old joke is twelve people not smart enough to get out of jury duty. That's who's going to be deciding your fate. And but it the reality of it is, but I use this in my closing arguments, is these are 12 complete strangers that are never going to meet you, they're never going to know you, they're never going to see you again, and they're never going to have to answer to you. So but I also say that to jurors, saying, you know, you can make an easy snap judgment here, just hey, we don't really care because you know you're never going to have to see my client again. You're never going to have to explain yourself to him, you're never going to have to face him again. And I try to personalize that and say, but from his vantage point or her vantage point, do you know how terrifying that is? That I've got twelve people that never have to be accountable to me ever again in my life that are going to decide potentially what the rest of my life is going to look like. That's terrifying. So take your role as a juror seriously. You know, and that so it's the same thing that we talk with our clients about about you've got two really good options here. You know? You decide. But you have to have the resources to do it.

SPEAKER_02 25:01

So what specifically motivated you guys to get into DUI defense?

SPEAKER_04 25:06

When I graduated law school, I um got hired with one of the big insurance defense firms. Um and I have nothing bad to say about that because the senior partner that I worked for is one of the most respected judges on the bench right now and a dear, dear friend of mine. We've remained friends through 30 plus years. But it wasn't for me. So I left. I quit. Like, I'm out. Probably a testament to the kind of friends that I had at the time. Um I had several friends right out of the gate within probably six months of me quitting that firm, all that got picked up for drunk driving.

SPEAKER_00 25:42

Very considerate, yes.

SPEAKER_04 25:43

Yes. Um why not hire our idiot friend that just quit his job? He's a lawyer, he has nothing to do. He's doing what we call toaster law, whatever pops up. You got a dog bite case? Sure, I'm your man. You know, that was me. And I didn't know that nobody in town took drunk driving cases to trial. I I didn't know that. So I started, okay, I've got these three drunk driving cases, three friends of mine. I I had no one to call and ask. I'm like, who who does this stuff? You know, we had a guy in town that called himself Mr. D Y, he's no longer with us, but they ran kind of a just a volume operation. I I needed to talk to how do I strategize a case like this? What does this mean in the police report? There was nobody. Light bulb. There's a big hole in the market here. So um I started taking these cases to trial. And I did, I believe, three drunk driving trials right out of the gate and won all three of them, hung one of them, and not guilty the other uh other two. Well, I mean, this is like the wrong clock that's right twice a day. I don't know how I did that, but eventually people start asking questions, like, hey, who is this guy? You know, this guy on the scene here, this cocky young dude that's winning these DUI cases. I'm like, Don't I don't know, I don't know how I did it. I j I just did it and it happened. And at that point, it was like, okay, now I decide. I had read a book in law school called The Man to See. It was about Edward Bennett Williams, famous trial lawyer, owner of the Washington Redskins. He was the mob lawyer for he's the guy that when he was prosecuting a big mafioso back in the 1950s, and Bobby Kennedy Sr. was um the the attorney general. And Bobby Kennedy said, if he's found not guilty, this mobster, I will jump off the Empire State Building. Well, Edward Bennett Williams took the case to trial, not guilty, and he sent Bobby Kennedy a parachute as a gang as a gag. And I just fucking loved that. So I decided, you know what? I'm gonna become, in this area of the law, the man to see. And so I went to every conference, every seminar. I traveled, uh, drove from here to Seattle to attend a seminar because I couldn't afford airfare. It was just that kind of a gig. But and then it just sort of took off. And this was in the early days of the internet, and so I got the website duysandiego.com, which automatically, just by its letters, in those days, before even Google was a thing, it optimized up. So it just went like this really quickly. And you know, I've tried not to pigeonhole myself and say, you're only a DUI lawyer, because again, I've handled everything from jaywalking to first-degree murder with a firearm.

SPEAKER_00 28:27

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: I'm a little bit more liberal of the two between us in terms of so I started off, I was an intern at the public defender's office. Um I I didn't think I wanted to be a defense attorney at all. I thought I was gonna be a prosecutor. Um I'm from Santa Barbara. My family is, you know, religious and they're um, you know, small town, and and I wasn't exposed to a lot growing up, um, you know, good or bad, whether I'm lucky that I was sheltered or not. Um I didn't really realize until I moved to San Diego, kind of kind of the realities of a lot of things. And so coming here, and then um I knew I wanted to do criminal law, but I thought, oh, I should be a prosecutor. And until I found myself at the public defender uh being an intern, and I saw a lot of things that I didn't realize were true. That you hear these stories, you know, and and you think, oh, this is just some propaganda and you know, liberal chat. And it was things that kind of shocked me a little bit. And I felt really protective in the role of being a defense attorney to say, like, whoa, there needs someone to police other people, or at least make sure if you are prosecuting someone, that you're doing it for the right reason, that you have the evidence to do that, that someone has represented you and made sure you're being treated similarly to someone else who's been in that situation. That frustrates me, even with what we see in DUI law. We have some cases that they're trying to hang this person from the rafters, and others where you go, you didn't even give this case a second look. It doesn't make sense. It's not fair sometimes when you see these, the laws being applied. And so for me, I am more liberal in what we would take. Uh cases, I remember one of my first cases I was shocked at at the public defenders as an intern was a gang case. And thinking, why would someone be in a gang? Why would you need to do that? And even hearing this kid say, you know, well, every day I walk to school. And if I went this way, I got jumped by this gang. If I went this way, I got jumped by this gang. And until I joined one, I had, I was beaten up every day. My money was taken and he had no one to protect. And you realize we're not, we're a product of our environment. So I'm not as what that's a in a stranger abduction case. Oh my gosh. I I'm not that grasping my pearls about it. But I still want to know, you know, what do we have here? And is this person willing to realize that they may have some mental health component to that? They may have some emotional issues. Is there something there? Or do we just have someone who is sometimes people are just plain criminals, right? But it's not usually always like that. So for me, I am a little bit more open to what comes through the door, what kind of cases that we would take that I would take. Um, and I think I I do like that the you know, the DUI side of things, people think it's oh, it's you know, especially misdemeanors, it's easy. No, it's not. There's a so many components, science and DMV and you know, constantly changing legislation. Right now we have something actually going up where they're trying to change all of the DUI laws. They're trying to increase punishment. And and I think it's reactionary. We see, you know, you know, officer um, I forget her name. I'm sorry. Now, Lauren Craven, who was just killed on the freeway, the CHP officer. There was a DUI accident.

SPEAKER_04 31:27

Lemesa P. D.

Sleeping In Your Car DUI Laws

SPEAKER_00 31:28

Yeah, Lamesa PD. She got out of her vehicle to help uh the one of the injured people, and she got hit by a military police officer who was drunk and he killed her. It's just, I mean, there's there's so many aspects to all of this stuff. Um, that you know, every day I think you could ask us, and and it would depend on the case. It would really depend on the case and the people. For me, I don't have a oh, I'm not gonna take it unless it's some of those things we talked about, and then I'm just not comfortable um doing those. And like you said, there are people who are very well situated to do that and would do an amazing job.

SPEAKER_02 31:59

Okay, so time for a question from one of our listeners. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

Free legal advice.

SPEAKER_02 32:07

This is a question from Reddit. I'm a med student, and a couple of months ago I received a DUI. I rarely ever drink and have never driven while drunk before in my life. However, after receiving news that one of my close friends had passed, I decided to go to a local bar and get pretty drunk to ease the pain. After a couple of hours, I decided to get in my car and sleep. Since it was winter and it was cold outside, I decided to turn on my car so I could get some heat. I slept in my car for what seemed like an hour or so until a police officer knocked on my door. Long story short, since I was intoxicated and my car was technically turned on, I was charged with the DUI. After talking with my lawyers for some time, it seems pretty unlikely that this case is going to get dismissed or even reduced. My state is very harsh on DUI, so they usually try their best to get guilty verdicts and pleas. I guess my question is, am I screwed professionally? I have no priors and I'm a male in my early 20s. I just feel so hopeless and depressed right now. I know there's a section to explain any of your convictions, but I feel like every residency is just going to filter me out and not even give me a chance since I am a misdemeanor. I can't help but feel like I worked so hard just to get here, just so I can throw it all down the drain.

SPEAKER_04 33:26

Does it indicate what state they're from?

SPEAKER_00 33:27

It does not.

SPEAKER_04 33:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 33:28

So that's not uncommon. Just general thought. This is this is so many of our clients. In San Diego, especially, we have you know military who have to deal with command and the rules there. Like we said, doctors, lawyers, um, judges, pilots, anyone I think a lot of people don't realize um some of the professions are either uh state or federally licensed, right? So there's as a this person here is going to have to deal with boards later on. So how does that impact them? So hospital privileges. This person's asking not just about this offense and what would happen, but the what we call collateral consequences that come along with an arrest or a conviction for DY.

SPEAKER_04 34:10

The reason I asked what state it is, there's different laws in different states. Now, California is what we call a volitional movement state, okay? I don't want to get too lost in the legal weeds here, but in California, there has to be evidence that you drove. That case would never get filed in San Diego if there was no evidence. Now, if there is somebody who said, Yeah, wait a minute, we got a 911 call that you were driving all. Yeah, you're parked now in your driveway or wherever you are, but we have video of a parking structure that you're driving in or something that establishes that you're the driver. But there are states that we call APC states, actual physical control. And that means you only need to be in the car capable of driving, and you can be prosecuted for a DUI. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_01 34:51

That is crazy.

SPEAKER_04 34:52

That is crazy. And you see, that's because it's basically attempted drunk driving, but you weren't attempting to do anything. You were just drunk in your car, but you weren't driving, you were asleep. And I'm sorry, isn't that what we want the drunk person to do? Go to your car, pass out. So you're telling me that if he got in his passenger seat and slept there, he'd be okay because he's not in physical control. Yeah, it doesn't matter. In California, we have this case right now where we have a young man that was parked, got drunk, walked to his car, sat in his car, turned on the engine because it was cold and fell asleep. Duck duck-duck-duck, and he got arrested. Well, if if a prosecutor doesn't dismiss that case, that's going to be a 15-minute not guilty verdict, because the law in California says there's a jury instruction that says you must have evidence that the car was physically moved while the person was intoxicated.

SPEAKER_03 35:48

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Could what if the cop asked him when they knocked on the window, where are you driving? How long ago have you been sleeping and you made admissions?

SPEAKER_04 35:54

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: And he said exactly that. He said, I had a glass of wine with dinner and I drove here. I've been here a couple of hours. Okay. Well, you had a glass of wine with dinner. That's not against the law. It's not against the law to have a glass of wine with dinner and drive. We have a legal limit. And it would take two, three good glasses of wine for you to get over that legal limit.

SPEAKER_00 36:13

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: It depends when you drank versus when you are stopped. I mean, it's so scientific. So that alone shouldn't be enough. We have like you said, we have this case right now, and we're going to take it to trial because someone's statements alone when they drove is not sufficient to prove the case against it. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_04 36:28

But in answer to the Reddit person, I would want to know in your state what is the law. Because it's about 50-50 across the country. I have colleagues that are defense attorneys in in pretty much every state. And some of them say, you know, something like that could be enough for a DUI. So if you're in an APC state, an actual physical control state, you you have an uphill battle, but again, I still don't think a plea bargain would be something I'd be encouraging my client to take in a case like that. That's still my my sales pitch to the jury is very simple. He did exactly what we want somebody who's drunk to do. We want him to go to his car and go to sleep, as opposed to, and I've used this argument in front of juries many times on cases like this. Say, I had a case where a guy was pulled off the freeway, up on an embankment, parked his car, went to sleep. He had left a wedding, he had had a lot to drink, didn't feel it. When he started feeling it, he's like, whoa, I've had too much, pulled himself over, went to sleep. And my argument to the jury was if you convict him, you're telling him he should have just gone for it. He should have just tried to make it home. Because he probably would have he probably would have made it. Most people that do this get away with it. But he did the responsible thing, and now you want to punish him for that? And you assuming he got not guilty.

SPEAKER_02 37:43

Not guilty.

SPEAKER_04 37:43

Not guilty in a very short verb.

SPEAKER_02 37:49

Because you're more likely to get like stopped by a cop if you're sleeping in your car than if you drive drunk and you just get home because a lot of people speed or swerve a little, like there's no guarantee you'll be able to do it.

SPEAKER_03 38:00

You can always all get comfy in a back seat and white instead of sleeping in the drink.

SPEAKER_04 38:04

I've had that case. A client of mine Can they still get arrested?

SPEAKER_00 38:07

He did have, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:08

He did, because he was blocking.

SPEAKER_00 38:10

So in California, you're not supposed to prosecute that though. Again, we're a volitional movement. And so unless you have proof of that or or circumstantial evidence of that. But in this person's situation, that is an APC state, sure, they might go down, right? So what happens then? I think to bring it back to this, is there are they gonna be okay? They're working to get a residency, they're gonna have to deal with the boards. We do with that all the time.

SPEAKER_04 38:29

Well, they should put up a bigger fight than they're being asked to put up, first of all, because the consequences are pretty c pretty heavy.

SPEAKER_03 38:39

Not every lawyer is a trial lawyer, not every lawyer has the ball to go to trial and fight and know what to do and think on their feet. Right.

SPEAKER_00 38:46

So you gotta get the right person to go and fight for you. And sometimes people don't have so not even the lawyer, but this person here, that what they have at risk, right? So if they can potentially take a plea deal, whether or not they think they broke the law, is that gonna be smarter than going to trial and potentially being convicted of DUI when they know they have to face the boards? This is the hard stuff that people have to think about, right? Because you'd think, well, I want to go to trial, I want my day in court. Okay, but is that going to if you're convicted, is that worse than taking a plea deal for something you may or may not have done? It's a hard thing as an attorney to have to advise someone on that.

SPEAKER_04 39:20

Aaron Powell Yeah. A lot of the boards look at what they call early acknowledgement of wrongdoing, medical boards, things like that. We work with professional licensing attorneys when we have either a medical doctor or a nurse or a medical student. We refer them out to a professional license who will say, you know, will the board take a dim view of this if they go to trial and are convicted, as opposed to saying, I did it, I'm guilty, I own it. Well, and that's part of the calculus that goes into this. But in a case like this, where it's like, well, but you didn't what I'm trying to figure out what crime you committed. That's a drunken public, maybe, but you're not even in public. You're in your own car. So my advice to the person that sent the uh question in is get a trial lawyer. Get a trial lawyer that tries these cases and can actually advise you as to the wisdom of going to trial.

SPEAKER_03 40:11

I have a question for you that I think many of you may be wondering about. If you get pulled over for a DUI and the officer asks you to take the breathalyzer test or to step out and walk, can you refuse either one?

SPEAKER_04 40:27

Aaron Ross Powell It's a very simple. In legal terms, um there's exceptions. One, if you're on probation, you have to take the breath test. If you have a prior DUI. If you're under 21, you have to take the little handheld breath test. Other than that, if they ask you to get out and you know pat your belly and tap your head on the all that bullshit, um the best legal pre arrest. The pre-arrest, the best legal answer is Go fuck yourself.

SPEAKER_00 40:56

He's holding up his middle finger.

SPEAKER_04 40:58

Go fuck yourself. No, I'm not doing anything. If you think I'm under the influence, take me in. I'll spend the night in jail. Fair enough. But all you're doing is giving them more evidence.

SPEAKER_03 41:07

Your license in California gets automatically suspended if you say no. Isn't that true?

SPEAKER_04 41:12

Trevor Burrus, Jr. No, no. Very good question. And very, very common misconception. To do the gymnastics on the roadside and the little sharper image breath tests that they have on the roadside, those are field sobriety tests, always optional. Ask how many police officers will tell you that they're optional. They don't. Here's what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna check your eyes. No, no, the hell you are. No, you're not. But if you're arrested, this is California law, if you're arrested for suspicion of DUI, then you have an obligation to take a blood or a breath test.

unknown 41:45

Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_03 41:45

And if you refuse to go.

SPEAKER_04 41:46

But not that breath test there. It's a breath test usually at the jail or at the police station. It's an actual machine, not like I said, a little 9-volt battery-operated piece of shit that's like a smoke detector. You don't have to take that one. Unless you are on probation or you're under 21.

SPEAKER_03 42:00

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: But they can say, I suspect you're drunk and arrest you without you doing those tests. So then you're gonna be stuck taking it anyways, no? Aaron Ross Powell, Jr.

SPEAKER_04 42:07

Correct. And you're gonna have to take it because that's called the implied consent law in California. You impliedly consented that if you are granted a privilege to drive in this state and you are arrested for suspicion of DUI, that you will consent to either a what we call a chemical test, a blood or a breath test. That does not include the roadside breath test. Again, I keep saying this, unless you're on DUI probation or unless you're under 21. Other than that, if you're over 21, it's your first offense. You do not have to balance the ball on your forehead on the side of the road like you're a SEAL at SeaWorld. You don't have to do any of that, and you don't have to take the handheld breath test. They're going to arrest you, they're gonna take you to the police station or to the jail, and there you have to take a blood or breath test.

SPEAKER_02 42:46

But like if you're not drinking, then minus it.

SPEAKER_04 42:48

But why would you want to give them even more evidence? Here's the thing.

SPEAKER_00 42:51

But if you're not drinking, it doesn't matter. So though oof, I hate to say this again, and you're good friends with a lot of cops. I'm apologizing to all of them ahead of time. But I'm very skeptical. But so there are things so these are a divided attention test. The whole point, they're gonna yell at me if they heard me say this, is to to trick you. Not to trick you, but to test multiple things at one time, right? So while they pull up and I say, Mila, I think you're DY, right? I'm the officer, I'm gonna come up and knock on your window. Well, I'm not just asking you, where are you coming from? Where are you going? I'm asking for your license, I'm asking for your insurance. I'm doing multiple things. So I'm watching to see are you fumbling? Can you do those things?

SPEAKER_02 43:27

I fumble just because I get it. And so, right, and so if you haven't been drinking, you're still nervous.

SPEAKER_00 43:34

And they'll say, Oh, she dropped her ID. She handed me her insurance card or her registration versus her insurance.

SPEAKER_04 43:39

Her driver's license instead of a credit card.

SPEAKER_00 43:41

Yeah. So one way or another, all of this stuff is being watched, right? So it is a thing of do I give them more to interact with, to believe that this may be I might have nystagmus for a medical issue, right? But they think it's alcohol. So sure, do I do I actually do field sobriety test? Do I interact? With this officer, do I not?

SPEAKER_02 44:01

Basically guaranteeing that you're gonna get arrested if you say no.

SPEAKER_04 44:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 44:05

Maybe. You are.

SPEAKER_04 44:07

But I'd rather be arrested and not have enough evidence that they can convict me than give them a whole host of evidence on the roadside that they can use against you. Here's a scenario. You've had three drinks, let's say. Okay? You're feeling it a little bit you don't think you're probably over the limit, but maybe you're close. All right? You drive, you get pulled over. Officer comes up and says, I want you to take a breath test. I want you to come out and you know do all the roadside tests. And keep in mind, I'm certified as an instructor in field sobriety tests. I can make you fail them right now, or I can make you pass them right now just by how I choose to interpret what you're doing. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00 44:41

And how you explain them.

SPEAKER_04 44:43

Yeah. Yeah. I can explain them in such a way that you're confused and you do them incorrectly. I can explain them in a way, or I can just grade you in a sense and the way that the police officers kind of run for cover and say, did they pass that test? Well, it's not pass or fail. Yeah, it is. Come on. Yeah, it is. It's pass or fail, but they won't ever say that. They won't commit to that. And let's say you blow 0.10. The legal limit in California is 0.08. So you're just barely over, right? Now they process you, they tow your car, you're sitting around waiting. Finally, they say, okay, we're going to take you to jail. You get all the way to drive all the way downtown. There's a line of cars, police cars waiting, and you finally get into the jail. An hour has passed, or two hours have passed. Let's say they finally get you in and they say, okay, now you've got to do a blood or breath test, this implied consent test. And you do, let's say, a blood test, and it comes back 0.07. Well, the implied consent test is the test that matters the most. And you're under the limit. Now, you gave them a test on the roadside that shows you were higher at the time of driving, because it's closer to the time of driving, but you were coming down. And now you're a 0.07, but it's two hours later. But if you didn't give them that test, it's anybody's guess whether you were higher or lower. Maybe you had just finished drinking and your blood alcohol was rising over the period of time, which it takes usually half hour, even an hour for your bl the alcohol to fully absorb itself into your bloodstream. So, like if you do a shot right now and I take your blood one minute later, you're still gonna be zeros. But if I do it 20 minutes or 30 minutes later, we're gonna see it because it's now migrated from your stomach through your small intestine into your bloodstream. So what you've done is you've given a prosecutor two points on a graph to say, well, yeah, okay, they're 0.07 two hours later, but over here you see they were a 0.10. But without that, it's just a 0.07. My job just got a lot easier to defend you.

SPEAKER_03 46:31

Thank you. You now that makes sense.

SPEAKER_04 46:32

And that's why they'll use the phrase the totality of the circumstances. But when it's just the field sobriety tests alone, that's it. It's very difficult because they are so subjective. And again, most cops will tell you that honestly.

SPEAKER_03 46:45

Excellent advice. Thank you.

Cannabis DUI Risks And No Limit

SPEAKER_04 46:48

You know, we defend a lot of these cases, drunk driving cases, and and handle people that have just made an honest mistake and people where alcohol has literally destroyed their lives. We've seen all points in between. Uber. Use Uber. Okay. It doesn't take much. And now that we've seen we this is a discussion we didn't even get into today, but now with cannabis weed being legal, it's so easy to get arrested if they smell weed on you, even if you smoked a day or two ago.

SPEAKER_00 47:20

We have no legal limit.

SPEAKER_02 47:21

So there's a 1.08 with food.

SPEAKER_04 47:23

And there's no way to test the legal limit.

SPEAKER_02 47:25

Any evidence that you've been smoking weed, they arrest you immediately. What about gummies?

SPEAKER_04 47:31

Aaron Powell Same. I mean, again, if you're under the influence, you're under the influence. And again, it doesn't but i you know if somebody's uh had a gummy and they're you know you're not gonna smell weed on them, maybe unless there's a baggie of weed gummies in their dashboard or something, there has to be evidence for the officer to form the probable cause to arrest you, right? But if you're clearly in a daze, what they're saying is I don't know what's causing you to be in this daze. Is it prescription medication? Is it cannabis, or do you have a medical condition? I don't know. But in the interest of public safety, I've got to arrest you, take you down to the police station, and we're gonna do a blood test, we're gonna find out about it.

SPEAKER_03 48:08

You have no choice. You're gonna get a lot of people. Once you've been arrested, implied consent.

SPEAKER_04 48:11

Yeah, implied consent law. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_03 48:13

You do have a choice.

SPEAKER_04 48:13

And if it's drugs, it's blood or urine. That's what happens.

SPEAKER_03 48:15

Trevor Burrus, Even if so if you refuse, they'll get a warrant.

SPEAKER_04 48:17

Trevor Burrus, and they'll hold you down and take your blood if they have to.

SPEAKER_00 48:20

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: It's so scientific. There is so many. So your question before when you asked him, and he said, don't give the roadside breath test because you gave a higher one. Well, what if that one was a lower one? Then you have two points in the graph showing that you weren't actually over the legal limit when you're driving. It is so difficult. There's not one answer that we can give that's going to be suitable for all cases. It is it is very That's our job.

SPEAKER_04 48:41

I mean, that's that's where we go over it and say, okay, in this particular situation, these are the defenses that are jumping off the page. Well, they if they jump off the page to us, they jump off the page to everybody. Our job is to find the ones that don't jump off the page. Say, well, hold on a minute. There's more to this, and that's what it may be. But the law, uh if it's an alcohol case and you've been arrested, you're supposed to be given your option of blood or breath. If they suspect drugs, then they're supposed to offer you a breath test first to rule out alcohol. And then if you blow zeros but you're still higher than a kite on something, then you have your choice of blood or urine. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_02 49:20

I know we're out of time, but I want to have you guys back to talk about two things that we haven't talked about.

SPEAKER_04 49:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 49:25

Your craziest cases.

SPEAKER_04 49:26

Oh god.

SPEAKER_02 49:27

And how you see the laws changing with the legalization of marijuana and that's the whole other topic. Because I think that's those are two really important things that it's huge and it's a very big misconception right now.

SPEAKER_04 49:41

Again, we'll table this for later, but I mean it's very common for people to say, well, I was smoking weed, but I have a medical card. You can legally buy alcohol, but you can't drink a bunch of it and drive. You can legally buy marijuana, but you can't drive while you're not.

SPEAKER_02 49:54

You get the same thing in employment cases. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_04 49:56

Yeah. Well, and then and you guys have the the that situation where the California Supreme Court said that they can employers, even though it's legal, can still use it as a great basis to fire somebody, call it a dirty test, even though it's legal.

SPEAKER_02 50:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 50:08

It's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 50:09

DI cases are often surrounded by stigma and misunderstanding. But conversations like this help people better understand the law and their rights.

SPEAKER_03 50:18

Huge thank you to Lauren and Cole for joining. Cole. What did I say? Cole.

SPEAKER_04 50:22

So just say douchebag. Everybody knows who you're talking about.

SPEAKER_03 50:26

Huge thank you to Lauren and Cole for joining us today and sharing their expertise.

SPEAKER_02 50:30

Make sure to subscribe and follow the Glamorous Crime so you never miss an episode.

SPEAKER_03 50:34

And if you have a question you'd like us to answer and let's get gritty, leave it in the comments or send it to podcast at antonianmiranda.com.

SPEAKER_02 50:41

Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time on The Glamorous Grind. Thank you guys. Cool. I learned a lot today.