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The Glamorous Grind
Where grit meets glamour, and the law is always in style. Hosted by attorneys Ilona Antonyan and Mila Arutunian of Antonyan Miranda LLP, The Glamorous Grind delivers bold conversations at the intersection of law, lifestyle, and mindset.
Each episode features stories from inside the courtroom, celebrity interviews, and real-life legal battles that shape lives and headlines. From empowerment and entrepreneurship to manifestation and vision boards, we explore the hustle behind the glam with fearless insight.
No topic is off-limits! Expect unfiltered talk on relationships, mental health, success strategies, and building your legacy.
The Glamorous Grind
When is Mediation Better than Court?
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When conflict gets serious, how do you know whether you need a lawyer, a mediator, a coach, or simply a better way to communicate?
In this episode of The Glamorous Grind, employment attorney Mila Arutunian and family law specialist Ilona Antonyan sit down with Julie Cobalt, an experienced mediator and conflict coach with more than 25 years of experience in conflict resolution, to discuss how mediation and emotional regulation can help people navigate workplace conflict and divorce
The episode also examines what happens after a divorce is finalized, but co-parenting conflict continues, why small parenting disputes can become expensive litigation, and how learning to regulate your own reactions may sometimes be more productive than repeatedly going to HR.
A legal case may end, but conflict does not automatically disappear with the judgment, settlement, or termination of employment.
Want more glam during your grind? New episodes every other Tuesday.
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Hosts: Ilona Antonyan & Mila Arutunian
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Once the divorce is final and they've got kids, for example, you're not gonna be there as a lawyer to say, like, well, no, tell them this. You're out of the picture. And they're left thinking, well, I thought this was gonna be done. And it's it's not done. You know, the guy was always five minutes late during the marriage for dropping off or picking up a kid. He's still five minutes late. And so, how do you get through those types of situations?
SPEAKER_01This is Glamorous Grind, and today we're talking about the human component in resolving conflict both in the workplace and post-divorce.
SPEAKER_00Burnout gets talked about like it's a wellness problem. Take a vacation, set better boundaries, get more sleep. But in the workplace, burnout can become a conflict problem. Communication slips, performance changes, managers get frustrated, and the HR gets involved. Suddenly, a high performer is looking at a write-up or the possibility of termination.
SPEAKER_01And then there's family law version of this too. People think divorce is the finish line, then the reality starts. The custody changes, holidays, and school decisions become a battleground. Legal case may be over, but the conflict that brought people to court can still be sitting right there.
SPEAKER_00So today we're asking a bigger question. When do you need a lawyer? And when might you need a completely different set of tools?
SPEAKER_01Our guest, Julie Cobalt, has more than 25 years of experience in conflict resolution. She has worked as a mediator, conflict coach, and attorney, and her work spans workplace conflict, divorce, parenting. Julie, welcome to the glamour's grind. Thank you. How'd you get started in the industry?
SPEAKER_02I went to law school with the belief, like I'm not sure this is like typical or not typical, but I think it was one of those, it gives you a path, it gives you a trade. And so if you, in my case, I was kind of like very undecided or directionless, and it just seemed like a a very practical application. And I came from a family that really believed in helping others. And to me, it was like you can help the world and you can save the world, that kind of thing. So I went in with that mindset and the belief that if you learn laws, you can help people resolve situations that are not working for them. That was kind of just the general idea.
SPEAKER_01Did you always know you wanted to be a mediator or a coach?
SPEAKER_02No, in fact, I had never, even throughout law school, I'd never heard of it. It didn't, it was, it just wasn't like on my radar. It was kind of like just get through the three years. I don't think I was really set up to be a lawyer because I've always been really sensitive. And I think I have a really strong sense when somebody's, I don't know, frustrated, irritated, unhappy, sad. And so I think that for me, the law was really about, you know, buckling down, learning a set of laws, cases applied, you know, but very black and white. And I really struggled with kind of the human aspect of it because I wanted to understand more about like, well, what happened, or why did how did she feel? Or was that really a good thing? Should we? And that was just kind of like, why are you talking about that? That has nothing to do with anything. But I was one of these kids who's like, if you start something, you finish it. It doesn't matter how miserable you are, it doesn't matter if it's what you want, you just do it till the time and teach our kids should be that way. And so I was gonna pass, I was gonna take the bar, like come hell or high water. And so I really, I honestly, when I graduated from law school, unbeknownst to anybody, I had long hair like you guys. And on the day of my graduation, I shaved it bald with a razor, and I was just like, Few. And I took a backpack and I went to South America, and I was just like, I'm never doing this as long as I live. And then I realized, like, oh, I had like a hundred thousand in student loans. Oh my God, I better do something about that. So I came back and I started practicing law, but I really fell into mediation very quickly, and it was like the love of my life. And it was an absolute like black and white between law school and practicing law and mediation and what you can accomplish in mediation with people.
SPEAKER_01My impression was that when mediators have prior litigation experience when it comes to family law matters, they're better able to predict what will likely happen in court if people litigate on the results and provide that advice. How does it work when you mediate without being a litigator when it comes to family law matters?
SPEAKER_02So I would say, in my opinion, over the years, there are kind of two types of mediators at this point. Mediators who are really earning lots of money, either are retired judges or litigators who have been, you know, they're sick of litigating family law or whatever, and they want to mediate because it's a different lifestyle. Back in the day, and it still is true today, there are also mediators who do things like, you know, community disputes. It could be neighbor disputes, it could be, for example, I worked for the city attorney's office in the dispute resolution office for misdemeanors that the prosecutor opted not to pursue and instead wanted the parties to sit down together. So I was mediating between a perpetrator, alleged perpetrator, and a victim and helping them come to a resolution. So mediators run the whole gamut. I mean, you have these retired judges who are really looking at it through the eyes of this is how it works in the courtroom, this is what's going to happen, or this is what's likely to happen. And it tends to be much more like strong arming, all the way down from a style that's just very almost therapeutic, kind of like, well, so how do you feel? How do you feel? How does that make you feel? How does that make you feel? So there's different styles, and I gravitated to something more in the middle. That's not my style, this like really strong-arm litigator, retired judge. But I also find it very ineffective if you're just kind of like, okay, so you don't like each other. You know, I mean, there has to be more than that. And so I can definitely draw on my law, practicing law experience to help people understand the reality of their situation and understand kind of the human side of what's going on and think deeply about what do they want for themselves. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I think that both in family law and employment, it's very similar because the issues are so personal, you know. And I think mediation or a session of conflict resolution type, you know, trying to talk things through helps just because it is hard for any person to see outside of their own perspective and having a third party come in and not only hear them out, but be empathetic towards them while at the same time acknowledging that there's a second side to it. I think that just is extremely useful in helping the person understand that maybe it's not all about me.
SPEAKER_02It's super powerful, powerful. And you're right, if you hire a lawyer, your lawyer is your advocate. So your lawyer is kind of doubling down to some extent on the righteousness of your position. And so there's not always a lot of space for, well, let's kind of look at the bigger picture here, or let's look at the cost, or let's look at the fact that your mental health is suffering, or you haven't been able to sleep. So there's all kinds of aspects that lawyers don't necessarily want to do, aren't trained to do, that mediation can then bring in. So yeah, I agree.
SPEAKER_01I think there are strong financial consequences to mediating based on emotions because when people are hurt, they're either driven by hurting the other person financially or through their children. And having an advocate in mediation makes a difference when you, as a mediator, is dealing with how do you feel about this and that, but not knowing your rights as to what you've been entitled to by law and just making decisions based on, hey, I want to get out of the situation, I want to move on, thing often results in regret and set aside of judgments because they leave things on a table because they're hurt or they're trying to hurt the other person. What do you think about that? Yeah, 100%.
SPEAKER_02And that's why I don't think in my perfect vision of the world, it's not no more lawyers. It's lawyers serve a super important function. And they are there to say, look, that's that's not gonna work out for you, or let's think long term, or whatever the questions are that you have. Once the divorce is final and they've got kids, for example, you're not gonna be there as a lawyer to say, like, well, now tell them to, you know, F off or whatever the case may be. You're you're out of the picture. And they're left thinking, well, I thought this was gonna be done. And it's it's not done. They're not, you know, the guy was always five minutes late during the marriage for dropping off or picking up a kid. They're divorced and they he's still five minutes late. And that infuriates the ex. And so, how do you get through those types of situations, which are really not law-related, but absolutely you need both. You can't, I mean, ideally you have both because you do need an advocate, but ultimately you want peace. I mean, lawyering is not necessarily about peace.
SPEAKER_01I think the kind of mediator you want depends on what stage you're in during the proceeding. Uh, what you've mentioned right now is post-custody disputes, it can be very expensive if people use lawyers to fight over being five minutes late and taking each other to court. But if they go to coach or do you do uh parenting coordination type of work where you help them communicate with each other?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01All of that.
SPEAKER_02I've worked with people who want to work together, either they're still married, but they're really struggling with their communication and conflict, or they're going through the process, or they're post the process. So any space along that continuum, it would be helpful. And sometimes I work with one, and sometimes I work with both, and sometimes I do specific classes that are more parenting related.
SPEAKER_01I think that's the biggest problem that drives up litigation is parenting disputes and custody disputes. Even when people don't have money, they find money because they want to fight for their kids and someone is pissing them off and they want to go after them and they want to protect their children. And everybody obviously sees it from their own lens, like they're the right one, the other person is doing something wrong. Where do you come in to help people in situations like that that are dealing with this for the next 18 years of their life until their kids are old enough?
SPEAKER_02Well, I guess it really depends. I mean, is it one person coming to me because they're angry and they're resentful and he or she is still continuing to do ex behavior that they hated while they were married? Or are two coming to me and saying, we don't like each other, but we just had a parent-teacher conference. And when I saw she was there, I didn't want to go in the door. And now I don't know how to talk to the teacher because I miss the parent teacher conference. So it could be anything, you know, it really is anything. There's not a set kind of do this or do that. But I think that it's it can be beneficial at any stage. The more you're able to work with the other person, the better, assuming the other person wants to work with you. But even if they're not, there's a lot of things that can be done. I tend to operate in a way that's very flexible and I really try to hear what people need. I'm not kind of a cookie cutter, like, oh, on this date, this starts, and we're gonna do this, because I think everybody's so different. And so I try to adapt to what their specific needs are, where they're at in the process, what their finances are. So ideally, there's a 12-week course that I have about parenting, and it really kind of leads you through emotion regulation and because ultimately that is the crux of conflict resolution. It's not he needs to do this or she needs to do this. It's where are you in this process and what's causing you to, you know, have these strong reactions in the situation and how can you help regulate yourself because ultimately that will be the best for your child and for yourself. You said emotion regulation, being self-aware, I guess, takes that. Yeah. I think if there were one thing you were to say, like, what's the most important thing about conflict resolution? It's really kind of a cross between noticing and self-awareness. And that that's for everybody. It's not, oh, those people are in conflict, but how well do you know yourself? How well do you know when things impact me and what types of things cause that reaction? Because the more aware you are, the more you notice, the more you can deal with it.
SPEAKER_01Um, since you're a lawyer, what experience do you have from the psychology perspective to provide training on how to regulate emotions and do this 12-week course, just so our viewers understand the difference of getting that from a therapist versus from a coach/slash lawyer?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think it's a great question. A lot and it comes up a lot. It's kind of like, well, you're not a therapist. And no, you're right. I don't have specific training in psychology. I've taken a number of coaching courses, including parenting courses and grief coaching and general coaching. And I've taken courses on high conflict couples or high conflict individuals, and then just honestly my life experience. And so the difference between a therapist and a coach is really I draw from my experience of mediation and how I'm able to help people see the other person's perspective so that they're able to see the picture larger and not just through this, you know, singular lens. And um, and it's the same kind of rules or the same skill set that I use in coaching. And it tends to be very action-oriented. And that's not to say therapy isn't action-oriented, but to really narrow down what's going on, why is this pattern happening? How can we identify it? And how can we start to take action steps that will change that pattern?
SPEAKER_01What do you find in situations where only one parent signs up and does your 12-week course and homework, but then continues to deal with the other side who just doesn't get it? How do you continue helping this person?
SPEAKER_02It's a great question because that is the reality of life. I mean, if you say, Oh, I really want it to be sunny every day and you live in a rainy climate, it's like, well, guess what? You know, it's not sunny. And that's out of your control. And that's really the most helpful thing somebody can learn is that it is out of your control. If that person, and you married them or you're working with them, that's that is who they are. The more you can accept that that's who they are and learn to deal with what that is, the better off you will be. The more you focus on, oh my God, and he did this or she did this, and the worse off you are. The more you're like, yeah, that's cool, that's who they are. And I'm gonna stand in my own shoes and I'm gonna live the life I want, regardless of who that person is.
SPEAKER_00It seems like it would be a pretty innate thing. You have a conflict, you resolve it, you get through it. A lot of times, unresolved conflict long term leads to very serious problems for the individual, whether it's in a family loss situation or in an employment situation, or, you know, with respect to their friends, if you don't resolve the conflict and it goes on for a long time, it can really be destructive. What have you learned about why people struggle to resolve conflict on their own? Like the main reason that people struggle with this.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I think there are two questions there. The first question is why is this so hard? It seems like it should be really easy. And I would say, I mean, think about yourself and think about your own life and think about how you were raised and how your parents responded when there was conflict. And that's not to say it was good or bad, but I think most of us have parents who didn't really know what to do. And so they said things like, stop it and apologize, you're done. Like that was it. And so that's what we learned. We learned, you know, you get it over with, or I'm right and you're wrong. There just hasn't been a lot of training or knowledge about it. And so it's, I don't think any of us are really cut out to be like really great at it. And in fact, what a lot of people will say is like, well, I never have conflict. But I'll say, well, what does that even mean? Because they assume it means like yelling at each other or like, you know, duking it out. But for me, it's a sense of dis-ease. So if you have a relationship and it's like super easy and fun and effortless, you're probably not having much conflict. But a lot of relationships or even just experiences are sometimes more in the middle. You're standing in line for groceries and you've been waiting, waiting, and somebody cuts in front of you. And you're like, hey, what's, you know, what's up? Like, that's not cool. You need to get to the end of the line. And the person's like, well, too bad, I'm gonna be here. You might be the type of person who says nothing, like, oh, I don't care, but you internalize it. There's still a conflict. It's not happening or playing out, but that conflict, even in that one situation, has happened. You know, obviously, in a lot of times in life, it's like, well, okay, that's the way it is. Or you can do more, but conflict doesn't mean there's two people speaking. It can be internalized, people are often really passive aggressive or make jabs at one another. But that's what we've learned. I mean, again, think about your siblings, think about your parents, think about your community. How did they deal with conflict and how different are you? In my experience, most people are the same because they haven't learned to do anything different. And the second question is you know, what happens over time? Yeah, it's super destructive because it's like if you walk right now with your shoes and you they're just like, you know, they're comfortable, but I put a teeny tiny pebble in. You're like, ugh, that doesn't feel great. And then I put another one and another one. And pretty soon you're walking with all these pebbles. That's gonna really be debilitating. That's what conflict is like when it's unresolved.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And it's so interesting from the employment perspective, there are a lot more employment conflicts now than there used to be. And a lot of people will say, Oh, it's this generation, like no one wants to put up with anything. But the truth of the matter is they used to just take it. There has always been bullying in the workplace, harassment, hostile work environments, but no one stood up for anyone. And it was expected that you just keep your head down and work. And that's not the expectation anymore, right? We have HR complaints. I mean, I have an entire social media page designated to how do you address workplace conflict? How do you make a complaint to HR? And it's because nowadays it's not okay. We understand the long-term detrimental effects of our mental health, the amount of time we spend at work. Those things add up and it does lead to burnout and emotional issues. I mean, so many employees end up going on mental health leave now, and they'll call me and they're like, I don't, I don't want to go back. The work environment is too hostile, too harassing. But 20 years ago, 30 years ago, that would have been considered normal. Do you ever get people like that coming to you?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I would say I'm thinking of a situation right now. They're partners and they own a company and they have really different styles, and he's much more explosive and she's much more like, you know, shrinks in the background. And yeah, you know, it's impacting their bottom line, it's impact, impacting how they're managing their employees. So yeah, it's it's very common, unfortunately. And I think what you're saying is how people try to resolve it now is they go to HR or they take a break and then they're like, I'm not going back. Maybe in the past it was like, okay, you just suck it up and this is the way it is. But what I find is of these two extremes, there's a middle ground that would be so much more helpful, which is talk to the person. And that ability to talk to somebody and say, look, I'm really struggling with this, not like you're doing this. But really learning how to communicate your needs in a way that's effective and helpful and respectful is not something that's really taught. People don't know how to do it. They feel like I'm in a hostile, you know, even that word hostile work environment already feels like it's elevated. So I don't know what's going on, but it could have been just somebody had a bad day or that, you know, I don't know. But the fact that they're not able to have these conversations with an HR person or with a mediator to resolve them and come up with some things that would be helpful, everybody could be, you know, happy in the end.
SPEAKER_01You know, you bring up a good point. It's probably safer to talk about it in a mediation instead of taking the two extremes because there's mediation privilege and everyone can sign a document that everything that's said here remains confidential, cannot be used in court. Because otherwise, with the California employment laws, you know, if you're trying to have a nice conversation with someone, they could be recording you, they can be sending you a summary email, twisting what you said, and then sending it to an attorney to turn it around and then use it against you in litigation, right, Mila? Absolutely. Can you provide your feedback on that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, it happens all the time. And that's why, so a lot of times employees will call me when they're dealing with these hostile work environments, but usually until they've been fired or there's some adverse employment action or they're demoted, their hours are cut, there's no real damages. So I don't come in to help them and I try to provide them some general guidance of go to HR, try to resolve it. And it would be interesting to see how many employers will have this type of, you know, situation where they could hire someone like you to come in and try to mediate the conflict because a lot of times, especially in smaller companies, HR is too close to everything. And HR will try to mediate it, but of course, everyone sees their own perspective and they say HR is biased. And it almost never leads to a good place. I think for sure that a conversation in a very neutral environment where you have someone who has no stake in it, is not friends with anyone, can hear both sides and say, hey, how can we help you resolve this? And that's one question I always ask when someone comes to me and they haven't been terminated. I say, what is your end goal? Do you want to stay with the company? Like, do you see a future there? Do you think if this changed, there could be a future there? And there's a big difference under California employment law of illegal actions where someone is being treated badly because of a protected class, because they're a woman. Like all men are treated well. The woman never gets, you know, the good assignments because they're like, oh, you have kids, we don't want to do that to you. That's discrimination, right? Right. But a lot of times it's just personality conflicts. Like the supervisor just doesn't like you just because. And that's not illegal. Exactly. But it's not illegal, but it does create this like nasty environment where this person is having anxiety and they really believe that what is happening to them is wrong. And it is, it's not right. No one should have to deal with that. But it's also not actionable under the law. So it would be great to have employers hire someone like you to come in, talk to both sides, and see what, if anything, they could do to resolve the situation.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And I would add to that also, you know, by the time they come to you, let's say, and the employee is saying, Well, I went to HR, I want to go to HR, I want something done. And let's say it's an employer-employee situation. So you've got some hierarchy there, but the understanding or the belief is they have it out for me. Again, aside from like protected class, they don't like me. But I'm telling you, 99% of the time in mediation, when people sit down, whatever they thought that person was thinking about them is almost never the case. There are a million other things that might have been the case, but as lawyers, we tend to be like, well, that's for sure what's going on. Because, but I'm telling you in mediation, I can't tell you how many kind of revelations come out that landed in a way that was not intended and was received in a way that was not intended. And once there's that ability to say, this is what it was like for me when you did that, and it really didn't feel so great. And that person to say, you know, my intent was this, but now I hear that that's how you kind of took it. Anything could happen. It just widens the whole conversation up.
SPEAKER_01One option is you can imagine what the other person is feeling and thinking and seeing it from different perspectives on your own. The other is going to a mediator and having a discussion, being able to talk about it in the open and get the real reasons.
SPEAKER_00But I think when you're hurt and you're in it and you feel wronged, it's extremely difficult to be empathetic to the other person's perspective. And I think the biggest lesson I learned going from representing employers to representing employees is the immense power of perspective. Because it used to be when I was on the defense side, someone would bring a claim and I would open the personnel file and be like, oh, here's what actually happened, right? But now I have clients coming to me and I only have their side of the story. And 80% of it is their perspective, and 20% of it is what actually happened. And the truth is really somewhere in the middle, right? So it's always interesting to me because you know, I write a demand and a lot of times the personnel file comes back and I'm like, oh, how do you help someone uh move from how do I prove I'm right to how do I get the outcome I want?
SPEAKER_02Well, it's really interesting because when I was practicing law and mediating, and now I really only coach and mediate, I don't practice law at all, but you know, you really have to assess what's important to that person. So how do I, in other words, I want to make that person suffer, no matter how much I suffer. That's that is one path. And as a lawyer, I'm like, well, okay. I mean, as long as it's, you know, within the confines of law, et cetera, et cetera. But you know, is that really what you're looking for? Let's look at this bigger picture because if what you want is peace, or if you want it resolved, you want to put it behind you, or you want to start a new life, that path is not going to get you there. So it's really helping them, really asking what is it you want and really understanding what they want and helping them to understand if you go this route, this may take, you know, years and amount of money, but you may never have the peace that you're looking for. But yeah, that's some people are hardwired. It's almost like for many people, especially what I would call high conflict people, it's conflict is like an appendage. If I were to say, I want to cut off your arm right now, you would not be like, sure, here's a saw. You would say, no. For a lot of people, that is what being in the conflict is. It's like taking away their arm, taking away their leg. Those people need to stay in litigation. Mediation is not appropriate because they're only there to be punitive or retribution or to, you know, stay in that victim role. Mediation is about moving forward. And so you have to be able to assess do you really want to move forward? What would that look like? And I can help them there. But if they need justice, that's probably not the right path for them.
SPEAKER_01I can think of a few clients who their case is over, but revenge and not moving on is still there. Yes. And I'm surprised to find out that they keep going at it, but really they could have moved on.
SPEAKER_00Right. That's so funny. I oftentimes we'll get clients and I get them a great settlement on employment cases. They're like, I'm not signing a waiver. And I'm like, no one's gonna pay you money without signing a settlement agreement. Just like, what if I want to see them later? I'm like, that's why they're paying you, you know? So I see it all the time. And I'm always like, if I were, or they will fight the confidentiality. Well, I want to talk about what they did to me. And I'm like, why? Just let it go, move on, like live your life, be happy. Um, that part's always very, very hard for me.
SPEAKER_02And I would say, I mean, my experience just at my age and over time, I find it also very cultural. You know, in some cultures, I think there's more value on peace and letting go and moving on. And I find in a kind of Southern California culture, I think we're all about our rights and we want our rights to be vindicated. And so we hang our head on that and we put a lot, and if you have the resources and you have that mindset, you'll go forever. Can you tell us about the work you do in Dubai? So I kind of work internationally, insofar as if I'm in Dubai, then I will I have clients here that we do Zoom and vice versa. But generally speaking, you know, the culture in Dubai, which is 90% expats, so it's not Emiratis or even necessarily Arabs or from all over the world, um, my clients tend to be more women who are going through divorce or have gone through divorce and are really struggling with, you know, how to transition, how to the same exact issues as here, you know, going, how do you co-parent? And but I think there are different legal issues there because generally speaking, if you're a man and there's a divorce, then they hold all the power. So they can take away passports, they can, and you know, they don't necessarily give the money when it, you know, they don't make the payments when they're supposed to. And so a lot of women are really struggling with survival and how, you know, how do they navigate going back to their home country or how do they get a job? How do they get a how do they get a visa to stay?
SPEAKER_01Just said the men take away your passport, that's terrible.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I would say that generally speaking, here it's much more balanced, it's fairer in the sense of you know, women and men, if they get attorneys, they both have kind of equal rights in terms of like the litigation and fighting and duking it out. But generally speaking, in that part, that region or that part of the world, the men have the power. And so a whim, a woman is at a huge disadvantage in terms of money, in terms of parenting or, you know, having access to their kids. Once, I mean, sometimes they'll take passports away or they'll take away their travel rights. And so they can't go back to their home country, they can't get a job, and they don't have any, and all the schools there are private, so you can't put your kid, there's no kind of governmental resources, so you can't get legal support if you don't have the funds to pay for a lawyer. You also, in many cases in Dubai or in the UAE, you can only resolve the the child part or the child, the child custody issue. You can't resolve any assets, so you still have to file in your home country. And so there's multiple lawsuits going on at different times. So it's it's very costly, it's very cumbersome. And um, yeah, women are definitely without a lot of the rights that they have here.
SPEAKER_01I have a couple of mothers who are foreign mothers living now in the United States that are mad at the American court family court system saying, why do mothers not have more rights with their children, especially when they're babies and they need to be, you know, breastfed, and especially in the first few years of their lives? Why is dad getting 50-50? And we try to explain the legislative intent, the frequent and continuing contact policy, how both genders are given equal opportunity to parent their children unless there is drug or alcohol, and that does not obviously satisfy the person suffering and missing their children.
SPEAKER_02I can tell you that there are a lot of things that are used against women that can't be used against them here. So they will make a man will make an allegation that she was cheating, and that in and of itself, you know, could cause her to lose access to her kids or alcohol if she. I mean, again, the laws have changed a lot in the UAE over the nine years that I've been living there. And at one point, for example, you couldn't have access to alcohol. Now you can have access to alcohol. And so, but that was something that could be used, not even alcoholic or substance abuse, but just even drinking at all. So, especially in situations where both the husband and the wife are Muslim, then that's that's going to be a big deal. I mean, that would be enough to like lose your kids. Or when I come in, it's really about helping them work through the process of ending the relationship. It's not so much about what's happening in the court. I mean, this is all more anecdotal, what has happened to them. But it it's not uncommon in a situation for a judge to say, you know, again, this is not a verbatim statement, but kind of like, well, what's, you know, is he beating you? Is this like, are you without shelter? Do you have no food? Well, then why are you? You you're kind of not entitled to a divorce because nothing really bad is happening. So the idea that, well, you know, I'm miserable or we don't get along, or he never shows up, or he's out, you know, doing other things that I don't like, that kind of it's like, well, that doesn't really measure up to his behavior is excused, whereas hers isn't. That's very common in that part of the region, especially when it comes to Muslims.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so now it's time for red flag, green flag. You have our bedazzled flags. We are going to call out different scenarios. And if those scenarios sound good to you and you think they're positive, then green flag. If you think they're negative or bad, then red flag. Got it. Okay, number one, your boss says, let's keep this informal. There's no need to put anything in writing. I agree.
SPEAKER_02That seems a little suspicious, just right out of the gate.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. No, I agree. I always say if it's not in writing, it didn't happen. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I mean, this is what I'm gonna say. It's neither. That always happens. I mean, they always are like, oh, I want to make sure. That's just a normal kind of thing that comes up. I mean, if it comes up, it comes up. I mean, I will say that's not really my role. I may have my own personal opinion, but it doesn't have any bearing on what's gonna happen. And what if they keep pressing? I mean, I do an intake ahead of time, so I would, I can't imagine being sitting there like, oh my gosh, well, I thought you were gonna make a decision. I mean, they would have known long before we sat down that that's not what my role is, and they would have made the decision to be there because it's in their best interest.
SPEAKER_00Okay, an employee receives a pip and immediately sends a five-page rebuttal while angry.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's never helpful. Like, never helpful. I mean, in any situation, if you're angry and you write something, like just kind of pause and revisit it.
SPEAKER_00So my favorite book is How to Make Friends and Influence People. And in there it talks about how I think it was Abraham Lincoln, his wife, he would always write angry letters to people, and his wife pretended to mail them, but would actually throw them away. And um, that was how he like kept his very good uh reputation because he still got all of his negative energy out, but the other person never saw the negative energy. And I guess that would be the best meme for conflict resolution where get it out, just don't tell it to the other person.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, your email to drafts. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I think that's pretty, you know. I will definitely tell people that write it out, say everything. Don't restrain, don't hold back, but then just you know, save it for yourself. It's you don't need to send it, you really just need to get it out.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Okay, let's see. Red flag or green flag? Your ex-text, if you don't agree to switch weekends, I'm taking you to court. So is his statement like red flag?
SPEAKER_02Yes. Yeah, I mean, of course it's a red flag.
SPEAKER_00Like that's never helpful. Red flag or green flag. A manager notices a previously strong employee missing deadlines and asks what has changed before issuing discipline.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think that's a green flag. That's super reasonable. Like, what's going on? I've noticed this switch. Like, let's have a chat about it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Red flag or green flag. Husband says, I'm gonna pay you for all the mediator fees, and make sure that you know he's paying for everything to try to influence you and how you're going to direct the mediation.
SPEAKER_02Well, I think it doesn't really matter. Again, a kind of a double. It doesn't really matter who pays, but I mean, I would certainly not be influenced by it. I would just say, I mean, look, let's say he makes a lot of money and she doesn't. I mean, that happens a lot, but I wouldn't, it wouldn't influence me at all. I would disclose it too, but the she would probably know, assuming it's a, you know, he and she situation.
SPEAKER_01Julie, red flag or green flag, parties have a lot of assets, and one of them pressures the other to not bring a lawyer to mediation while he or she will have one.
SPEAKER_02I mean, that specific question more red flag, but I would address it before a mediation and just say we're not gonna be able to accomplish much. I mean, she can come without a lawyer, but we're not gonna really be able to do anything because these questions need help of somebody, a financial expert, a lawyer, to get to the bottom line. I mean, that's just not gonna, we're not gonna get very far.
SPEAKER_00It seems like it would be unfair if one side had a lawyer and the other didn't.
SPEAKER_02But you can still do mediation. You can, and there are some mediators who won't do it. It's either both are pro purr or both have a lawyer, but uh one pro-per and the other with a lawyer, a lot of media are just like, so now it's time for let's get gritty.
SPEAKER_00This is a listener question for you. Okay. My ex and I finalized our divorce eight months ago, but we are still fighting constantly. We have two kids, age eight and eleven, and every text exchange turns into a huge argument. And we text because we can't talk on the phone. We aren't together anymore, but I feel like we need to go back to counseling just to talk to each other without yelling. And he refuses to go. I'm tempted to go back to court just to make the rules around our custody exchanges more specific. How do I know whether I need my lawyer again or if I can just talk to him differently and maybe fix this, send help?
SPEAKER_02I think it's a really common situation. I don't think it's like, oh, that's weird. I never heard of that before. I think it's super common. And I think that going back to court is not going to resolve anything. It's just gonna throw good money after bad because the court might have more specific words like be more respectful, or but it doesn't do anything. And so I'm not sure whether she needs therapy, but definitely working with a coach in this case about what can she do to help herself in these situations so that it doesn't just automatically revert back to this kind of tit-for-tat exchange. I think there's a lot that can be done. And I think a lot can be done with her kids because her kids are witnessing this or receiving this in some way. She may be talking about it or they may hear it or they may see the text, but a lot of support can be given too to help them communicate with their ex or their father, mother in a way that's gonna be more helpful to them. I mean, just that's gonna help them in their lives. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Julia mentioned the vague order that may not be enforceable. If someone is going to return back to court because they want an order, they need to think about what's gonna be the wording of that order for it to be enforceable by way of contempt, meaning a violation of a court order, a proceeding you can file to enforce an order that's not being followed. So if it just says be reasonable to each other, the court is never gonna punish the person who's being unreasonable because it's so vague and can be argued in many different ways. You cannot hold somebody accountable. But if it's specific, like um phone calls must occur at six o'clock every day on specific days, then that's enforceable. And if someone doesn't follow it, then you can take them to court, and then there could be consequences, um, either a fine or jail time or public service. And maybe then they'll get it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I think I would add one more thing to the to this response to this question, and that is that it takes two people. So let's assume he's sending these texts that are really inappropriate or unhelpful or aggressive or whatever. The person who receives them has an opportunity to do something about it. They don't have to respond in kind. So there's a lot that she can learn about finding better ways to approach that are more helpful to her and subsequently to her kids. It doesn't always have to, it devolves into this. Well, that's because two people are doing it. It's not just him, she is as well. And that's not to put blame on her. It's like, again, going back to what have we learned, how have we learned to deal with conflict? What we've learned is you insulted me, I insult you back. Or I see you're doing the same thing again. And you just all fall into those same patterns. She has awareness, she can start to break that pattern. He's gonna be who he is. It's gonna rain or it's gonna be cloudy. You know, there's nothing you can do about it, but you can protect yourself and become a better communicator and be a better model for your kids.
SPEAKER_01I would say keep it your text short and to the point. Don't send those long ones where you keep arguing with each other. Then both may seem crazy if it goes to court and then you want to see those messages.
SPEAKER_02And if you know, like Bill Eddy, he does a lot of high conflict work and he has a high conflict institute, he uses BIF brief, informative, friendly, and firm. And so that's just kind of an easy acronym to remember like, oh yeah, is it brief? Is it informative? Is it friendly, firm? And if it's not, you need to get it within those four things.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I think both in family law context, but also in employment law, you have to, when you're writing a text, sending an email, you have to assume it could eventually be seen by a judge or a judge.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_00I think just generally with respect to conflict resolution, an important thing is as humans, we can't control other people. And we want to. I hate to say it, but we want to. I always want to control everything everyone does, especially my kids, but all we can control is our reaction. And in that same line, I mean, how other people treat you is 90% based on them, what they're going through, their journey of life, their experiences, and 10% based on you. And keeping that in mind, I think would probably make conflict resolution easier, but it's obviously easier said than done.
SPEAKER_01You have to have courage to know the difference between what you are able to change and what you can't change and let it go. Yeah. So you can focus on your taking care of yourself. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, 100%.
SPEAKER_01For our glam tip of the week, we're gonna answer what is the one conflict resolution skill you wish everyone could use?
SPEAKER_02I think it sounds really simplistic and it kind of is, but it's super powerful and it's the ability to pause. So if you somebody says something you dislike, you know, the ability. Ability to just take a moment and really assess what do I want to say? Is this really helpful to me? Is it helpful to the other person? Is it helpful to the situation? I mean, that pause can be five seconds, 10 seconds. It's not like you have to, you know, do anything, but just really dig deep and think before you speak. A pause is huge. I'll take your advice.
SPEAKER_00I know I think we all need that. I think for me, the biggest conflict resolution skill I try to teach myself and my kids is what we just talked about of understanding that other people's behaviors towards you is more of a reflection of them than it is of you. And that just gives so much perspective to situations. But when you're in it, it's extremely difficult to keep that in mind. For sure. It really is.
SPEAKER_01Some may say I make excuses for other people, but I try to see it from their perspective. Yeah, from multiple perspectives, like they have a bad day. Did something happen? Like, where are they coming from? What are they feeling? And perhaps that's a way to pause before you attack, but easy to say, hard to do. Right, right.
SPEAKER_00She really is like that. It's kind of crazy. And no matter what happens, she always is like, well, they probably are just like, How are you so empathetic?
SPEAKER_01It's sometimes wrong. A lot of times wrong.
SPEAKER_00People do take advantage of that. People take advantage of sometimes they have to be like, hello, wake up.
SPEAKER_02But I think the other thing is when we say hard, easy to say, hard to do, it's really, it really is simply practice. So if you want to run a marathon, but you've never even run down the block, yeah, it's gonna be hard to run a marathon. But if you start and you really make an effort, it gets a lot easier.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Repetition is the, what is that? Repetition is the father of mastery forever.
SPEAKER_01How much practice are you gonna get? To get practice, you have to have a lot of fights, no arguments.
SPEAKER_02You people have conflict all day. Anytime you're in a situation where there's some disease.
SPEAKER_01You're saying this ease, and I say it now, I hear you saying that twice now. Why are you breaking it up like that?
SPEAKER_02Because it's not disease, it's dis-ease. You're not in a space of ease. I mean, it can happen at any moment. It can happen in the grocery store, it can happen on driving, it can happen, you know, just situations any all day long.
SPEAKER_00If I with your kids, with how many times I've been in situations like the grocery store line where someone wrongs me and I'm just like, don't say anything, and then it sits with me for days, sometimes years. I still remember certain situations. I remember one time I took my three-year-old nephew. This is I was 19 years old. My nephew was three, and I took him into the bathroom at TJIF, and this lady came to me and started yelling at me that he's too old to be in the woman's restroom. And I just like didn't say anything. I was like, I'm so sorry. And I like left with him and I was like, wait a second, why didn't I stand up for him? He's three years old. Why? And to this day I remember it because I I was so uncomfortable and I did not fight back. And those things stick with you.
SPEAKER_01Standing up for yourself. Yeah, that's important. If you like, I've let one thing go, taken someone as advice where I should have gone and be like, here's the knowledge I received, here's the shit you said, like, did you say this? I'm wine, let's clear it up. But no, I'm carrying it for 10 years, not compressing the person. Like, where it's probably somewhere in between, you know?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And I do think there's a balance between like and like, oh, I'm doing nothing. There's that's that middle ground where you are sticking up for yourself and you are coming into your space, you're not letting it go, but you're also not gonna hang on to it. You know, there is that space in between.
SPEAKER_01But I think it's important to make a decision on whether you stick up for yourself or not, because if you stick up for yourself at the wrong time, in the wrong place, if you're the wrong person, it can turn into something worse than carrying it with you for you know 20 years. Yeah. And instead of letting it go, that lady could have punched you. It could have been worse, right?
SPEAKER_00It's true. But yeah, I think we do deal with conflict on a regular basis a lot more than we even understand. Even, you know, at the beginning you said that you're you've always been very sensitive to people's emotions and how they're feeling. And sometimes that will cause conflict of just understanding that someone's upset, but not really saying anything about it. I mean, how many times do we face those types of situations in everyday life? And if we can learn to be like Alona and be like, well, this person's really rude right now, but maybe they're just having a bad day. She really does see the best in people, and it's it's crazy.
SPEAKER_02And I think one of the things it's a little counterintuitive, but you know, for example, using the woman in the restroom, you know, you once, oh, I'm really sorry, and you run away and then kind of have been holding on. Alternatively, you could have been like, hey, this kid is three, and you need to, you could have done that. My approach would have been like, yeah, I understand your concern. So validating somebody, that's one of the most powerful things you can do and say, I really understand your concern because I I wouldn't want a kid in here that was like inappropriately old. He's only three and his mom couldn't, whatever. You know, that's the that's the connection.
SPEAKER_01Whatever you think and you don't mean it. What if you think she's wrong? And I don't understand your concern. A kid is three and he didn't look under your stall. He doesn't do what you want to do.
SPEAKER_02This always goes back to what is it that you want? What is important to you? For me, what's important to me is to have good relationships, to have ease, to have my ability to speak up, but also to acknowledge somebody else. It's not just my way. And so the idea that, yeah, what she said, I might think it's like a little cuckoo, but there's still some validity. I mean, she didn't say now, maybe she's mentally ill, but assuming she's just like really high strong, helping your job is to help that other person calm down. If you are really grounded and you can validate it and say, like, yeah, I can see, and thank you, thank you, because I'm glad that we're all making sure that the right age kid or appropriate whatever, and then transition and be like, because I I have the same values as you, and I want to make sure that I'm doing the right thing, and that's why I'm whatever. I'm just making it up as I go, but that's not an either or. It's not a running away and it's not an attacking. You've stuck up for yourself, you've maintained a connect because we're all connected. You know, you leave that and you hang on to it. She may be hanging out. I don't know. But the more we can do things that there's like connection and not like, well, you shouldn't be doing that. I think the easier all of this is on everybody. What about the following the saw in Portlandia? I hear your words. Do you think that would work with that lady? I think you want to always be authentic, you know, and you don't need to be like, oh my goodness, I'm so sorry. No, thank you so much. But I think something like, yeah, I hear where you're coming from. Thanks for thanks for pointing it out.
SPEAKER_00I think a lot of times validation holds extreme po power when people at least feel heard. It's I mean, I've seen it so many times in the employment context when they just want to feel heard. They don't want to feel like they want to feel like what they're feeling is real, even if it's not, you know.
SPEAKER_02Well, even if you don't agree, you don't have to agree. I'm always like, you don't have to agree. You just have to hear demonstrate you've heard them.
SPEAKER_00That's how my marriage has survived. Today's my 14-year anniversary. Whenever we disagree, it's always just like, I don't agree with you, you're wrong, but okay, you get that. And like, that's our conflict resolution.
SPEAKER_03It's worked.
SPEAKER_00And if it works for you, it's great. It's worked so far. Thank you. It's really fun. I really appreciate it. This is really nice and fun. I think informative. I think like helpful things. I think everyone deals with conflict.
SPEAKER_01I like that you reminded our viewers about BIF-time literary.
SPEAKER_02It's super helpful, especially in those contexts.
SPEAKER_00The big takeaway today is that conflict doesn't always end when you leave the job, finalize the divorce, or walk out of the courtroom. When it goes unresolved, it can become a constant source of stress and burnout.
SPEAKER_01And sometimes the best solution isn't another fight. It's learning how to communicate, set boundaries, and move forward. Julie, thank you for giving us a different way to think about conflict and helping people actually get to workable next chapter.
SPEAKER_00Hit that subscribe button and make sure to follow us. And if you've got a question for Let's Get Gritty, leave it in the comments or send it to podcast at AntonianMiranda.com. Thank you for listening. We'll see you the next time on the Glamorous Grime.
